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  #51  
Old 10-12-2007, 03:51 PM
Subfallen Subfallen is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
FROM THE OTHER THREAD. I WILL TRY TO SUMMARIZE.

Basically, no one has any clue what you mean when you say "actually meaningful". WHAT I WAS REFUTING FOR THE 18 BILLIONTH TIME, is that you do not have to observe something for it to have "actual meaning". I claimed no position on Christian metaphysics or Christian morality.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually meaningful: makes a falsifiable statement about observable reality. Subjectively meaningful: everything else.

Different categories, confusing them without admitting it is mendacious. This is what BTIrish was doing.
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  #52  
Old 10-12-2007, 03:52 PM
Matt R. Matt R. is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Subfallen,
Actually, LOL. Based on your most recent post referencing that thread weeks ago, I don't think you even comprehended what I was arguing for or against.

I think this logic stuff is over your head. Don't worry about it fella! I'll try to be nicer in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're the deuchiest christian i've ever encountered.

and that's saying something.

[/ QUOTE ]

mbillie,
Thank you. If you read Subfallen's previous interactions with me, you may actually understand why I talk like that to him. You may continue being misinformed though, and believe that I must be a douchebag because "I am the Christian". Keep on truckin', atheist soldier.

PS -- When people are respectful and try to have honest discussion, I am respectful in return.
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  #53  
Old 10-12-2007, 03:54 PM
Subfallen Subfallen is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]

Actually meaningful: makes a falsifiable statement about observable reality. Subjectively meaningful: everything else.

Different categories, confusing them without admitting it is mendacious. This is what BTIrish was doing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Refutation please.
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  #54  
Old 10-12-2007, 03:56 PM
Matt R. Matt R. is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

So, by your own definitions, pure mathematics is only SUBJECTIVELY MEANINGFUL. This is extremely important, please take note of what I am saying. In other words (edit: by your definitions), statements involving pure mathematics are not objectively falsifiable.

You cannot OBSERVE statements arising in pure mathematics. Math is still "actually meaningful".

Your eyeball is not some magic "actual meaning" granting entity.

I'm am NOT saying Christian metaphysics or morality must be true, in any way shape or form.
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  #55  
Old 10-12-2007, 03:59 PM
LuckOfTheDraw LuckOfTheDraw is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

Good question. I have come close, on several occasions, to making a similar post. Mine would have differed slightly, though, and would have been more general. I ask: why do people spend so much effort arguing and debating with people who are clearly not able to comprehend logic? There may be some who simply don't accept logic, and maybe, in their case, it's worth it to debate. However, there are clearly some who are unable to comprehend logic. Yet, many smart people spend a lot of time trying to make them understand, and it's a lesson in futility.
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  #56  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:02 PM
Subfallen Subfallen is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
So, by your own definitions, pure mathematics is only SUBJECTIVELY MEANINGFUL. This is extremely important, please take note of what I am saying. In other words (edit: by your definitions), statements involving pure mathematics are not objectively falsifiable.

You cannot OBSERVE statements arising in pure mathematics. Math is still "actually meaningful".

[/ QUOTE ]

No, math is a priori only subjectively meaningful. As Einstein said, "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."

If you thought you were trapping me here, you're just adorable.

[ QUOTE ]
Your eyeball is not some magic "actual meaning" granting entity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, yes, the senses and their interface with consciousness are the necessary and sufficient standard for falsifiability and thus actual meaning.
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  #57  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:05 PM
Matt R. Matt R. is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

Oh, how cute. You really think mathematics is only "subjectively meaningful"? You really aren't going to back down from that? I'm sorry, but if you actually hold this position, I'm not sure I can debate past that. It is really about as "obviously wrong", from my perspective, as you can get. Math is the FOUNDATION for the hard sciences. How on Earth is your eyeball superior to math in finding "real truth"?

So, what it is about your eyeball that magically grants you priveleged metaphysical status?
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  #58  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:07 PM
Matt R. Matt R. is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, yes, the senses and their interface with consciousness are the necessary and sufficient standard for falsifiability and thus actual meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come on man. You're telling me that Euler, after he went blind, was thereafter incapable of discovering ideas with "actual meaning".
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  #59  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:09 PM
Matt R. Matt R. is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

Another question for you. Are people with biological defects in their eye incapable of discovering "actually meaningful" truth, or claims, whatever?

How do we KNOW that your, or my, or anyone else's eyeball works so perfectly that it is the ultimate standard for knowledge? It's not because of an a priori assumption is it?
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  #60  
Old 10-12-2007, 04:10 PM
Subfallen Subfallen is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, how cute. You really think mathematics is only "subjectively meaningful"? You really aren't going to back down from that? I'm sorry, but if you actually hold this position, I'm not sure I can debate past that. It is really about as "obviously wrong", from my perspective, as you can get. Math is the FOUNDATION for the hard sciences.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you even read the wonderful little Einstein aphorism? The foundation of the hard sciences is making empirically falsifiable models. Obviously the models are usually mathematical. However the "actual meaning" of a model is determined by how its observable predictions perform.

[ QUOTE ]

So, what it is about your eyeball that magically grants you priveleged metaphysical status?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actual meaning requires a falsifiable impact on consciousness. What on earth is "magical" about that? Isn't it the most frightfully economical and pragmatic requirement imaginable?
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