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  #71  
Old 10-12-2007, 12:53 PM
Subfallen Subfallen is offline
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Default Re: The Myth of Meaning

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You have a chance to give value for any hour when you still exist. After your death you don't have such chance. Im not saying that its easy to have a meaningful eternal life but that meaning is impossible in mortal life.

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No, "meaning" is not a conclusion at the end of a metaphysical argument that starts with the premise "God exists." Meaning is an existential quantity.

This is abundantly clear with a contrived example. One person hears the Gospel at age 8, and is then shut up in solitary confinement for the rest of her life. The other person never hears the Gospel, but has a healthy, beautiful family and at the end of a long career in medical research, discovers the cure for AIDs.

Whose life will be more "meaningful?"
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  #72  
Old 10-12-2007, 01:06 PM
pokervintage pokervintage is offline
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Default Re: The Myth of Meaning

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Just because some people believe there is a God doesn't make it real.

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Of course it does. When a person believes something is true then it is true for him. Yes for a child the truth fairy exists. That is what believe means. That is not to say that a person cannot change their views. But as long as they believe something is true then for them it is true. My gosh that is exatly what religion is based on. Belief (without proof).

pokervintage
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  #73  
Old 10-12-2007, 01:11 PM
pokervintage pokervintage is offline
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Default Re: The Myth of Meaning

"there is something wrong with how they state the claim they make and it's not just me misunderstanding it."

I am afraid it is just you misunderstanding.

Pokervintage.
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  #74  
Old 10-12-2007, 01:15 PM
luckyme luckyme is offline
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Default Re: The Myth of Meaning

[ QUOTE ]
Of course it does. When a person believes something is true then it is true for him. Yes for a child the truth fairy exists. That is what believe means.

[/ QUOTE ]

And just as the dollar doesn't actually come from the tooth fairy, so the 'meaning' isn't actually coming from god. It's coming from the belief in god.
"My belief in gods existence gives meaning to my life"
isn't under question.
"How does the existence of god give meaning to human life" is.

luckyme
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  #75  
Old 10-12-2007, 01:23 PM
pokervintage pokervintage is offline
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Default Re: The Myth of Meaning

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I suspect you're not a typical theist

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No I'm not a typical theist. I am an atheist.

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Does the mere FACT of god's existence create meaning in human life or is it the persons belief in god that gives his life meaning?

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That is what you are missing. There is no difference between a person believing God exists and God existing. If a person believes in God and accepts God then god exists and this belief adds meaning to his life. If you want to argue the existence of God then that is another issue. But meaning comes from God's existence. God exists if you believe that God exists. That is it and for some it is the TRUTH.

pokervintage
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  #76  
Old 10-12-2007, 01:31 PM
pokervintage pokervintage is offline
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Default Re: The Myth of Meaning

[ QUOTE ]
atheism makes life meaningless

[/ QUOTE ]

What about searching for the truth? Is that meaningless? We are all in this boat together.

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My point is that if we are going to die, nothing what we do or do not really matters in the end.

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It might to your children and others that come after you. God and or relgion is not necessary to give meaning to your life. If you do not believe in God you still have the ability to be an understanding, caring HUMAN being. For some that is meaningful.

pokervintage
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  #77  
Old 10-12-2007, 02:53 PM
kurto kurto is offline
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Default Re: The Myth of Meaning

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because some people believe there is a God doesn't make it real.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it does. When a person believes something is true then it is true for him. Yes for a child the truth fairy exists. That is what believe means. That is not to say that a person cannot change their views. But as long as they believe something is true then for them it is true. My gosh that is exatly what religion is based on. Belief (without proof).

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

There's some confusion here.

Certainly if something believes something to be real, it 'seems' real to them. That does not mean it is real.

Hence the example I gave earlier about the Christian and the Lion. Recently, I believe in Europe, A Christian jumped into a lion's cage because he believed God would protect him. It seemed real to him. Yet, he was killed by the lion.

My point, obviously, is that just because something seems real to someone does not make it, in fact, reality.

In the context of this thread... if what you're saying is that someone can draw 'meaning' from something merely by believing in it, regardless of its truth, I agree with you. A placebo effect.

I am merely trying to separate 'reality' from 'belief.' They are not the same.
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  #78  
Old 10-12-2007, 03:04 PM
Matt R. Matt R. is offline
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Default Re: The Myth of Meaning

I haven't read the whole thread, but I think this is easily answerable by looking at the definition of meaning:

From dictionary.com

1. to have in mind as one's purpose or intention; intend: I meant to compliment you on your work.
2. to intend for a particular purpose, destination, etc.: They were meant for each other.

If God exists, this generally implies an intelligent creator of our universe. In other words, our universe was made to be the way it is because God intended it to be that way.Thus, there is "purpose" or "intention" behind our universe (definition (1) of meaning). If God does not exist, our universe lacks that meaning.

I agree that God's existence does not necessarily add any "personal" or "subjective" meaning to our lives, but I think when most theists claim that God gives their lives meaning they are referring to it in a more "universal" or "absolute" since... i.e. the universe as a whole has meaning.
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  #79  
Old 10-12-2007, 03:12 PM
kurto kurto is offline
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Default Re: The Myth of Meaning

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read the whole thread, but I think this is easily answerable by looking at the definition of meaning:

From dictionary.com

1. to have in mind as one's purpose or intention; intend: I meant to compliment you on your work.
2. to intend for a particular purpose, destination, etc.: They were meant for each other.

If God exists, this generally implies an intelligent creator of our universe. In other words, our universe was made to be the way it is because God intended it to be that way.Thus, there is "purpose" or "intention" behind our universe (definition (1) of meaning). If God does not exist, our universe lacks that meaning.

I agree that God's existence does not necessarily add any "personal" or "subjective" meaning to our lives, but I think when most theists claim that God gives their lives meaning they are referring to it in a more "universal" or "absolute" since... i.e. the universe as a whole has meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was nice to try to use some uniformity in definition.

But I'm still not sure I get how having a creator gives some important meaning to your life.

Lets say most people's parents intended to create a child. Do we attribute significance to our life and all of its choices simply because our parents sought to create us?

Even if you believe in a God (any of the hundreds or thousands of Gods that man has and/or does believe in)... once you accept that, what is the purpose or destination that I now have? (and I mean.... at a simple level I can say I will be good on Earth so I can spend an eternity in heaven... what will my purpose be there? Will I need to find 'meaning' in my eternity in heaven? (same question with all the other religions that man has seen fit to worship)
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  #80  
Old 10-12-2007, 03:44 PM
pokervintage pokervintage is offline
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Default Re: The Myth of Meaning

[ QUOTE ]
There's some confusion here.

Certainly if something believes something to be real, it 'seems' real to them. That does not mean it is real.


[/ QUOTE ]

Look when someone believes something is true it is true for them until they are shown otherwise and accept the other point of view. Why is it that for people that believe in God, God exists? It is for no other reason than that they believe.

That is not hard to grasp or understand and is not confusing. You want to argue that because God exists for them doesn't mean he xists for you and you are right. God does not exist for you. But he does exist for true believers. You want to argue the existence of God...good luck.

[ QUOTE ]
Hence the example I gave earlier about the Christian and the Lion. Recently, I believe in Europe, A Christian jumped into a lion's cage because he believed God would protect him. It seemed real to him. Yet, he was killed by the lion.


[/ QUOTE ]

The answer to this is that "we do not question God's wisdom or reason for doing things" Perhaps God did protect the Christian by making him not suffer or bringing him to heaven after his death. There might be many expalnations for the death not countering the belief that the christian was being protected.

pokervintage
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