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  #121  
Old 09-13-2007, 06:03 PM
AlexM AlexM is offline
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Default Re: Study: Brains of liberals & Conservatives may work differently

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If you look deep in you heart ( [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]) and philosophically consider the implications of capitalism: do you really think it isn't exploitative?

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Free exchange that benefits everyone... nope, not remotely exploitive.

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In theory, I agree with your sentiment. However, in practice, much of the wealth generated by capitalists is ultimately due to a claim on natural resources -- a mine, a forest, a river, vast sums of farmland, harvesting of wildlife, etc. It isn't really "free" exchange if a capitalist plunders a natural resource and adds some labor and then sells it back when he doesn't truly "own" the resource to begin with. Example: Those who hunted the buffalo to near extinction and profited handsomely by selling buffalo products never owned the buffalo to begin with, and their plundering of it robbed an entire people of an important natural resource which they were using sustainably. To say it was a free exchange between buffalo hunter and buffalo consumer is to completely neglect those adversely affected by the exchange who got no benefit whatsoever. Example: A capitalist company which lays claim to a mountain range and mines it for ore and profits handsomely only profits because they laid claim to a part of the earth and extracted its value -- they don't "own" the earth, they merely are able to hold this territory and exploit its value through social convention or superior force. If the source of private property is ultimately an exploitation of earth's resources (which can be argued to be "public" in the sense that our species both those living and those for generations to come as well as millions of other species depend on for existence and satisfaction), then private property is indeed exploitive in some sense. At least private property as it concerns fencing off a portion of the earth and its resources greater than needed for subsistence and saying "mine -- I call it first -- you don't like it? eat my guns".

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Rather than fruitlessly disagreeing with that opinion, I will simply say that capitalism is simply people freely trading with each other. It does not necessarily have to involve monopolization of natural resources. If I painted a picture and you wove a basket and we traded them, that's capitalism.

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So in other words, you don't know how to defend capitalism when it comes to natural resources

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Yeah, sorry I didn't fall for your red herring. I know you had your heart set on it.
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  #122  
Old 09-13-2007, 06:28 PM
Copernicus Copernicus is offline
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Default Re: Study: Brains of liberals & Conservatives may work differently

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I think they could still have a legitimate right to war against being deprived of the use of the land/fauna, but that wouldn't be the same as a claim of ownership rights.

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This is what most Austrians define as property rights; if you can legitimately use force to protect something that you use, you own it. <font color="red">good. Im not the one making the claim that NA's didnt believe in property rights, even if by another name </font>

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Conversely they would not have a right to deny someone else use of the same land/fauna.

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This makes no sense because of the scarcity of the land/fauna. <font color="red">it makes sense if you don't believe in property rights, which is what I understood the claim about NA's to be. </font> And how would such a situation not devolve into the tragedy of the commons?

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="red">who implied it wouldnt? </font>
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  #123  
Old 09-13-2007, 09:03 PM
nietzreznor nietzreznor is offline
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Default Re: Study: Brains of liberals & Conservatives may work differently

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Out of curiosity, could it be said the natives "owned" the buffalo and the land that they were using? Even if they did not believe in or care about property rights as we know it, they should still retain those rights I think.

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I think it would depend a lot upon the specifics of the situation--I think that they would clearly own whatever they were currently 'using', but how far that depends is debatable for tribes that wouldn't stay in place long and were more or less continually on the move.
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