Fish in a Barrel...

[Mano]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am already beating these players but as we all know, we want to become more proficient by fine-tuning our game. Nothing makes me happier than making a calling station fold. It's just that that is very difficult to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to return to the basics. Calling stations don't fold, thats what makes them calling stations. So instead of trying to make your calling station opponents do things that they wont do, start trying to adjust your actions to match the player type.

PS: read Professional NL Hold'em, sounds like this book is made for you. Also read the strat forums, you dont have a single post in them that I can find.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, Professional NL Hold'em is on the way from Amazon. Waiting patiently for Negranau's book too.

I post in MTT strategy once and awhile and Poker Strategy a lot.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. My hand is JJ. I raise (although I am doing that less now because a lot of these loose players call with Arag or two paints like KT so overcards are always a problem so deep stack I might play JJ for set value).

All right, so 3 players call my raise (which is now usually more than 3xBB). The flop is 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet out or raise any bet in front of me and still get one or two players still in. And I do bet enough to make draws costly. However, reading the hands I'm against I have found that I can be facing A8, A6, A2, K8, K6, any draw, and sometimes 99 or TT but those guys usually move in here. There's also the odd numbskull who called a raise with 86.

Against good players I am up against a set, slowplayed AA or a move (or maybe 86 against a guy who knows how to play that). And good players might hang around with 99 or TT but not be pushing it.

Sorry to turn this to strategy but this is the kind of hand I am looking for in a book and how to analyze the various crazies that are still around.

[/ QUOTE ]

PNL should help with this a lot - this type of hand seems to be exactly what target SPR's addresses. With overpair type hands you want a fairly low (~4 or less) SPR so you can profitably commit against these type of players range of hands when you flop an overpair (in other words, try to get enough into the pot preflop so they don't have the implied odds to chase down your overpair when you make a pot sized bet). If you can't get the SPR low enough with preflop betting, try and have a very high SPR (>20) and try to keep the pot small. They explain it much better in the book.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
I agreed already that you can do this but I wouldn't make a habit of it, even as a good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

then you will never be a good player. Think about it... are you trying to win the hand or your opponent's stack?

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agreed already that you can do this but I wouldn't make a habit of it, even as a good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

then you will never be a good player. Think about it... are you trying to win the hand or your opponent's stack?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the book forum right? Please point me to a NL book that says you should call early raises with 86 offsuit in hopes of stacking somebody.

[ShaneP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agreed already that you can do this but I wouldn't make a habit of it, even as a good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

then you will never be a good player. Think about it... are you trying to win the hand or your opponent's stack?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the book forum right? Please point me to a NL book that says you should call early raises with 86 offsuit in hopes of stacking somebody.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's probably not the exact situation you might be looking for, but (going from memory), Largay talks about that when he initially sits down in a LLNL game in "No Limit Texas Hold'em"

Just looked it up, pg 166, talking about calling with 82s, with a raise from UTG to $20 (in a 1/2 game).

Shane

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
It's probably not the exact situation you might be looking for, but (going from memory), Largay talks about that when he initially sits down in a LLNL game in "No Limit Texas Hold'em"

Just looked it up, pg 166, talking about calling with 82s, with a raise from UTG to $20 (in a 1/2 game).

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, finally an actual recommendation for a book rather than flak.

It sounds like he is setting a tone as a loose, wild player and then playing tight. You're right that this isn't exactly the situation I was talking about regarding playing a trash hand to try and stack somebody.

I'll check out that book, thanks again.

[ShaneP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's probably not the exact situation you might be looking for, but (going from memory), Largay talks about that when he initially sits down in a LLNL game in "No Limit Texas Hold'em"

Just looked it up, pg 166, talking about calling with 82s, with a raise from UTG to $20 (in a 1/2 game).

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, finally an actual recommendation for a book rather than flak.

It sounds like he is setting a tone as a loose, wild player and then playing tight. You're right that this isn't exactly the situation I was talking about regarding playing a trash hand to try and stack somebody.

I'll check out that book, thanks again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's a bit of setting up loose play early then tightening up-that's part of it. The other part of why he recommends that is because of the limitation on buy-ins (it's a live play book), and it seems a lot of places--online too--have a buyin of 50-100 bb. That play sets up a loose image, and also can result in getting a nice stack to play more deep stacked poker. Although I think he talks about the use of calling with such cards as deception as well...

[steamboatin]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing makes me happier than making a calling station fold. It's just that that is very difficult to do.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would suggest that you caefully monitor your play to make sure you haven't developed Fancy Play Syndrome.

Why are you tryng to swim upstream? I think there is an old Chinese proverb that says something like, "It is much easier to lead a horse if you lead him in the direction he is already going." Why would you want to make a calling station fold and why do you get pleasure from it? It sounds like you know you are a good player and you have to prove it on the felt.

Making a calling station fold isn't +EV, extracting maximum value buy letting them call off their chips is +EV.

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's probably not the exact situation you might be looking for, but (going from memory), Largay talks about that when he initially sits down in a LLNL game in "No Limit Texas Hold'em"

Just looked it up, pg 166, talking about calling with 82s, with a raise from UTG to $20 (in a 1/2 game).

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, finally an actual recommendation for a book rather than flak.

It sounds like he is setting a tone as a loose, wild player and then playing tight. You're right that this isn't exactly the situation I was talking about regarding playing a trash hand to try and stack somebody.

I'll check out that book, thanks again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's a bit of setting up loose play early then tightening up-that's part of it. The other part of why he recommends that is because of the limitation on buy-ins (it's a live play book), and it seems a lot of places--online too--have a buyin of 50-100 bb. That play sets up a loose image, and also can result in getting a nice stack to play more deep stacked poker. Although I think he talks about the use of calling with such cards as deception as well...

[/ QUOTE ]
Now that I think of it, one of the problems I seem to encounter is that I am playing against Level 1 thinkers. So much of my play which might be for deception or setting up an image or setting up any future play is lost on them. And one thing I am trying very hard to get a handle on is not to do too much Level 3 thinking against these players which can get me into trouble. On top of that, there are a few Level 2 players and if I stay at Level 2 as well, I can't outplay them.

Perhaps I am looking for two books as follows:

Volume 1: "How To Play Optimally Against Level 1 Thinkers"

Volume 2: "How To Tell Level 1 Thnikers From Level 2 Thinkers"


Thanks for all the replys and even the flak. It's been a slice.