Quick specific razz question: holding a T versus a resteal.

[Micturition Man]

If you are the second to last low upcard and you open with a three card ten, and the last low card reraises you, how do you feel about defending versus folding?

IIRC SOR has you folding here.

Intuitively I want to fold, and I think in a small pot case it's an easy fold even with a smooth T.

OTOH game theory wise I have tentatively concluded that in large pot situations (i.e. 8-handed high ante games), you need to call with at least your smoothest tens here.

I'm just wondering what razz regulars typically do here, in practice.

[ChipsAhoya]

If my 3-card T is good enough to raise with, then I'm calling the re-raise. If I'm not willing to call a re-raise, then I don't open for a raise. Something like A2T is 60/40 against like a 358 anyway, so it's not that bad. It also depends on the player with the low card, will he re-raise as a bluff or only with a good hand?

-ChipsAhoya

[SweetLuckyMe]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are the second to last low upcard and you open with a three card ten, and the last low card reraises you, how do you feel about defending versus folding?

IIRC SOR has you folding here.

[/ QUOTE ] It depends on the range of villian's re-raise, and what I think he thinks I'll do vs. the re-raise.

Folding every time against every player in this spot is clearly wrong. I think always folding is clearly better than always playing on. The exact correct mix obviously falls somewhere in between, and is very opponent/situation dependent.

[Micturition Man]

[ QUOTE ]
If my 3-card T is good enough to raise with, then I'm calling the re-raise. If I'm not willing to call a re-raise, then I don't open for a raise. Something like A2T is 60/40 against like a 358 anyway, so it's not that bad. It also depends on the player with the low card, will he re-raise as a bluff or only with a good hand?

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm assuming nothing is known about opponent tendencies.

Also I really don't agree with not open-completing unless you can call a raise back. There are some games where this is valid, but surely razz is not one of them. (Though I have seen some pros <not razz pros> who seem to play razz this way.)

As the second to last low card you should be opening with a lot of hands. I think SOR has you opening with any single low card in the hole. A lot of these hands are clearly unplayable if you get raised back, like say (Q7)5.

Stud hi is another game where you should often be taking a shot at the antes with a hand that can't call a raise back from the highest upcard (or sometimes from any upcard).

I'm thinking one should call the reraise, as the second to last low card, with the very smoothest tens in a small pot and then broaden a little as the pot gets bigger. Something like (T8)7 is always going to be a fold.

[ChipsAhoya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If my 3-card T is good enough to raise with, then I'm calling the re-raise. If I'm not willing to call a re-raise, then I don't open for a raise. Something like A2T is 60/40 against like a 358 anyway, so it's not that bad. It also depends on the player with the low card, will he re-raise as a bluff or only with a good hand?

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm assuming nothing is known about opponent tendencies.

Also I really don't agree with not open-completing unless you can call a raise back. There are some games where this is valid, but surely razz is not one of them. (Though I have seen some pros <not razz pros> who seem to play razz this way.)

As the second to last low card you should be opening with a lot of hands. I think SOR has you opening with any single low card in the hole. A lot of these hands are clearly unplayable if you get raised back, like say (Q7)5.

Stud hi is another game where you should often be taking a shot at the antes with a hand that can't call a raise back from the highest upcard (or sometimes from any upcard).

I'm thinking one should call the reraise, as the second to last low card, with the very smoothest tens in a small pot and then broaden a little as the pot gets bigger. Something like (T8)7 is always going to be a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that you can know about the opponent's tendencies fairly quickly. While you are generally supposed to fold, in shorthanded games, for example, one you start folding on 3rd street, good opponents will start re-stealing with almost anything getting about 1:1 depending on the antes in the pot. This severly blunts your ability to steal, which is a big part of the shorthanded game.

I have not seen anyone fold to a 3rd street r/r unless it was multiway in the short time I've took shots at the $20/$40 game on FTP. I can imagine this is a combination of calling w/ a bad hand hoping to even up on 4th street since it's a game of upcards, and also being careful with what you raise with in the first place. It seems to me that the latter is more +EV than the former.

-ChipsAhoya

[Micturition Man]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If my 3-card T is good enough to raise with, then I'm calling the re-raise. If I'm not willing to call a re-raise, then I don't open for a raise. Something like A2T is 60/40 against like a 358 anyway, so it's not that bad. It also depends on the player with the low card, will he re-raise as a bluff or only with a good hand?

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm assuming nothing is known about opponent tendencies.

Also I really don't agree with not open-completing unless you can call a raise back. There are some games where this is valid, but surely razz is not one of them. (Though I have seen some pros <not razz pros> who seem to play razz this way.)

As the second to last low card you should be opening with a lot of hands. I think SOR has you opening with any single low card in the hole. A lot of these hands are clearly unplayable if you get raised back, like say (Q7)5.

Stud hi is another game where you should often be taking a shot at the antes with a hand that can't call a raise back from the highest upcard (or sometimes from any upcard).

I'm thinking one should call the reraise, as the second to last low card, with the very smoothest tens in a small pot and then broaden a little as the pot gets bigger. Something like (T8)7 is always going to be a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that you can know about the opponent's tendencies fairly quickly. While you are generally supposed to fold, in shorthanded games, for example, one you start folding on 3rd street, good opponents will start re-stealing with almost anything getting about 1:1 depending on the antes in the pot. This severly blunts your ability to steal, which is a big part of the shorthanded game.

I have not seen anyone fold to a 3rd street r/r unless it was multiway in the short time I've took shots at the $20/$40 game on FTP. I can imagine this is a combination of calling w/ a bad hand hoping to even up on 4th street since it's a game of upcards, and also being careful with what you raise with in the first place. It seems to me that the latter is more +EV than the former.

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]


Chips - I think in most opening-positions you should always be calling a raise back.

However as the second to last low card I think if your opponents are always calling a raise back they are making a mistake... either stealing too conservatively or calling too loosely (probably the latter).

IMO.

[horrorshow]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are the second to last low upcard and you open with a three card ten, and the last low card reraises you, how do you feel about defending versus folding?

IIRC SOR has you folding here.



I'm just wondering what razz regulars typically do here, in practice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if I'm good enough to qualify as a Razz regular, but this is what I think. SoR said to fold Jacks, call with 9s in this situation. Unless the guy is the godfather of all nits, you pretty much have to defend with a smooth ten against one opponent.

The ante/bringin structure is a lot bigger in online razz games than anything mentioned in SoR. At a full table, the antes and bring-in amount to a little over a full bet. So you're getting 4-1 on your money for the call, and you aren't that much of a dog.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are the second to last low upcard and you open with a three card ten, and the last low card reraises you, how do you feel about defending versus folding?

IIRC SOR has you folding here.



I'm just wondering what razz regulars typically do here, in practice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if I'm good enough to qualify as a Razz regular, but this is what I think. SoR said to fold Jacks, call with 9s in this situation. Unless the guy is the godfather of all nits, you pretty much have to defend with a smooth ten against one opponent.

The ante/bringin structure is a lot bigger in online razz games than anything mentioned in SoR. At a full table, the antes and bring-in amount to a little over a full bet. So you're getting 4-1 on your money for the call, and you aren't that much of a dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to be the one to point this out, but the antes in today's online games are often similar to what is described in SOR. To be specific, the FTP tables and the higher ante STars tables play like the 30/60 game in SOR, but some of the Stars tables play a little more like SOR's 15/30 (which was a nit's paradise and had only a $1 ante!)

Hopefully I at least get props from *TT* for this...

[horrorshow]

I could have sworn the ante/bringin worked out to a higher percentage of a complete than in the $30/60 from SoR.
Although I didn't look at structures above what I play at, so I'm probably off for mid/high levels.