Folding to a donkbet?

Newman30 · #1 10-05-2007, 12:31 PM

What do you think about this hand/fold?

Villian is a decent player (25/19/3), capable of making moves.

When somebody bits into me I always (95% of the time) take it as a donk bet. When I have nothing I raise to make the opponent fold almost all of the time. This flop I am sure I have the hand, so I don't raise, because I don't want a fold. On the turn I still think I have the hand, although he could have made a lucky pair of kings, but it is unlikely.

Everest Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00/$4.00 (HH Converter by Kreatief)

CO (360.00) (Hero)
Button (388.00)
SB (112.00)
BB (386.40)
MP3 (1,019.20)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
1 folds, Hero raises to $16.00, 1 folds, SB calls $14.00, BB calls $12.00,

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ( $48 )
1 folds, BB bets $35.00, Hero calls $35.00,

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( $118 )
BB bets $100.00, Hero calls $100.00,

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ( $318 )
BB bets $235.40 and is all-in, Hero folds,

The4thFilm · #2 10-05-2007, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This flop I am sure I have the hand, so I don't raise, because I don't want a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]WTF? Please explain.

FGators · #3 10-05-2007, 02:25 PM

Hello, Newman.

Raise the flop to like $115 and go from there.

Pacuno · #4 10-05-2007, 03:02 PM

First of all, rebuy pf!

If villian is decent and you don't have seen him bluf donkbetting before I would probably play it the same. This flop is very dry and he bets into two people. I think you're WA/WB on the flop. When he fired his 3rd barrel you only beat a complete bluff and it's an easy fold.

Newman30 · #5 10-06-2007, 08:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]

WTF? Please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really want to discuss this subject of betting into a hand a bit, I find it quite interesting.

I c-bet a lot. People can expect a c-bet from me, when I am the pf raiser, and I am in position. When someone bits into me it is almost always air, or a weak hand. If people have a very good hand (better than a pair) they tend to want me to c-bet, and then raise me either on the flop (most often) or on the turn.

Here villain bits into me (donkbet), I take it as weakness, and with my TPTK, I am sure that I am ahead. I don't want him to fold right away to a raise. My plan is to extract more value from the hand, by taking the hand away on a later street when he checks. I imagine he will stop betting either on the turn or the river. When the king falls (my only really bad card) I would try to get cheap to showdown.

I saw a friend (very successful NL600 player) doing the same thing the other day. He had an overpair, and someone was donkbetting him. He repopped, and immediately regretted it, because he knew the donkbet was weakness, and he knew his repop would result in a fold, and so it did. He would rather have extracted more money out of the hand.

This is why I would not repop the flop, as suggested by FGators. But on the other hand I ran into trouble because I did not reraise. Maybe I will next time with TPTK, but definitely not with a better hand.

I will watch this villain very closely in future hands; I could imagine this could be complete air. Why play a good hand like this? Unless you know I am provoked by it, and will perceive this kind of play as air. I’m sure villain did not know this about me though. I am very aggressive, and I will C-bet, so he could easily take advantage of checkraising me. On the other hand some people just bet right out (Phil Gordon describes in his little green book that he just bets right out, when he hits oop, and is not the pf raiser) Cr represents more strength and villain would be in a greater risk of getting a fold from me by checkraising.

But betting into the pf raiser on all 3 streets, you do not see that too often. Maybe I should consider doing that, when I do hit myself oop. Normally I would checkraise on the flop, but sometimes against good players, it just represents too much strength, and I will get a fold, when I bet out on the turn. I think this is very dependent on the limit you play. On lowstakes, where I have just recently played (NL200), people just don’t fold a lot. You can checkraise the flop, bet the turn and the river, and they won’t fold top pair good kicker (This is of course a rough generalization); they will on NL400.

If I should conclude something on this, it would be that if a weak player bets into you it is very often weakness, if a good player does, it could be strength, and if you do have a good hand yourself, there would be more reason to test villains hand in the latter case with a raise. In the first case you would just want to extract value with fx an overpair. I would still not fold an overpair, agaist most people who bets into me on all 3 streets on NL400. Maybe it’s different on high stakes.

Next time someone donkbets me, I will raise a decent player with TPTK, better hands I will call to extract more value. Against a bigger (aggro) fish I will still call with TPTK and try to extract more money.

This was a lot of talking. Comment would be greatly appreciated.

Here is a hilarious Danish comedy strip (Wullfmorgenthaler) to everyone who made it through this post:
http://www.wulffmorgenthaler.com/def...b-0c7db3a60c6c