**** ALDS GAME 4 Tribe/Yanks (Byrd vs. Wang)**** - Page 85

MuresanForMVP · #**841** 10-09-2007, 01:45 AM

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Carmona's career development path may very well follow that of Kevin Brown's. Take a look at his strikeout numbers when he started and then see where they ended up in LA.

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if that path ends up with Carmona losing game 7 of the ALCS to the Red Sox then I'm all for it!

LBJ · #**842** 10-09-2007, 01:49 AM

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Also, after a poll of AL scouts and managers regarding the best tools and "stuff" in the league, you can't find Carmona in the top 3 of any single pitch that he throws. This was in Baseball America. It's just not true

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Pretty sure his sinker will be in the top 3 of next year's issue.

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Sinkers are counted as fastballs when it comes to pure "stuff". It is a sinking fastball.

edit: so if you think he'll make the top 3 in the fastball category I'd have to say that's pretty unlikely. But the fact that we're debating whether or not he has one top 3 pitch seems like a pretty strong case against him being anywhere near prime Pedro, or having the best stuff since

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Yeah, he'll be Top 3.

MuresanForMVP · #**843** 10-09-2007, 01:52 AM

I would offer up a bet but alas I'm broke like a joke

LBJ · #**844** 10-09-2007, 01:59 AM

I guess I was a little short so I'll expand. Many hitters have been quoted as saying Carmona has the nastiest stuff in the league. I'm not going to go that far (although the hitters' opinions should be the only ones that matter), but V Martinez said Carmona could get by by throwing his sinking fastball >90% of the time. I've watched nearly every start of his this year, there's no doubt that his sinking fastball that can get mid 90's yet have so much sinking action is one of the best three in the league.

MuresanForMVP · #**845** 10-09-2007, 02:07 AM

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I guess I was a little short so I'll expand. Many hitters have been quoted as saying Carmona has the nastiest stuff in the league. I'm not going to go that far (although the hitters' opinions should be the only ones that matter), but V Martinez said Carmona could get by by throwing his sinking fastball >90% of the time. I've watched nearly every start of his this year, there's no doubt that his sinking fastball that can get mid 90's yet have so much sinking action is one of the best three in the league.

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A lot of that is obvious hyperbole. Simply saying that some hitters said it was the nastiest stuff in the league or that Carmona's catcher pumped him up by saying he could get by as a starter only throwing his sinker doesn't really mean much. Remember, Beef said that Carmona had the best stuff since '99 Pedro, and I lol'ed at that. That is what I was debating, and saying that someone has "some of the nastiest stuff in the league" shows that he is AMONG the best stuff in the league right now. Even if I were to concede that, then you'd still have to put him up against all the lights-out pitchers from the past 8 years.

Besides, a lot of pitchers have had an 80 pitch before, but you don't just go throwing around the best stuff label without something to back it up other than a couple players' off hand quotes, including his own catcher. Mo Rivera DOES get by throwing only a fastball, so should you not concede that his fastball is better than Carmona's?

EMc · #**846** 10-09-2007, 02:54 AM

This wsa the first time in years I felt like we had a shot, we were gonna pull through. It was interesting, after Cano's HR a cool breeze started in the stadium, it had been so hot way before that. It felt like october weather, and Jeter was up. It just felt like it was gonna happen. And it didnt.

tolbiny · #**847** 10-09-2007, 03:13 AM

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I guess I was a little short so I'll expand. Many hitters have been quoted as saying Carmona has the nastiest stuff in the league. I'm not going to go that far (although the hitters' opinions should be the only ones that matter), but V Martinez said Carmona could get by by throwing his sinking fastball >90% of the time. I've watched nearly every start of his this year, there's no doubt that his sinking fastball that can get mid 90's yet have so much sinking action is one of the best three in the league.

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BP has nice graph, by the end of the year Carmona was throwing his fastball >80% of the time. Its sick filthy.

Kos13 · #**848** 10-09-2007, 03:31 AM

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Carmona's career development path may very well follow that of Kevin Brown's. Take a look at his strikeout numbers when he started and then see where they ended up in LA.

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Yeah, someone mentioned this on BP the other day. If he can even be Kevin Brown lite, I'll be thrilled.

KJS · #**849** 10-09-2007, 04:46 AM

TRIBE!!!!!!!!!

Man Byrd stepped it up. Tribe outplayed the Yanks in every aspect. ALCS awaits.

GOGOGOGOGO

KJS

vhawk01 · #**850** 10-09-2007, 04:49 AM

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Carmona's career development path may very well follow that of Kevin Brown's. Take a look at his strikeout numbers when he started and then see where they ended up in LA.

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Yeah, someone mentioned this on BP the other day. If he can even be Kevin Brown lite, I'll be thrilled.

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This reminds me of something a buddy of mine asked me a little while ago. Is Kevin Brown a HoFer? He doesn't really FEEL like a HoFer if you know what I mean but he has some pretty fantastic numbers and was really, really good for a while.