A trip to the Turtle (much poker content)

[Holm Fries]

Since I have read and thoroughly enjoyed many of the trip reports in this forum, I thought that I would try my hand at writing my own. I have posted the first few parts below - if there is interest, I will post the rest over the next few days.

HF

Introduction
For the past four years, I have looked forward to mid-March like an eight year old looks forward to Christmas. Several years ago a couple friends of mine had the foresight to institute an annual trip to Vegas. The tradition of the trip (which started with two people and has added a lucky customer each year) has withstood grad school, marriages and assorted kids. This year, someone (I don’t remember who, so I will take credit) had the idea of instituting “Vegas Training” (brilliant!), which would involve a trip to the neighboring state of Wisconsin for a day of NL hold’em cash games and a tourney at Turtle Lake (TL) Casino. Although primarily limit players, we resolved to center training day around NL, as this seems to be the flavor of the month (and thus likely all that we will be playing) in Vegas.

Our party of five was reduced to three due to a mysterious malady and work circumstances. Here is the cast of characters:

CP – sitting this one out because of work. C’mon man, you work in a poker room – tell them this is market research or something.

TP – TP is this year’s addition to the trip, but is sitting out training due to a tummy ache (alright, it sounds more like the stomach flu, but still….). As a result, we resolve to call him “pledge” while in Vegas and subject him to several bouts of hazing.

Seven Footer (SF) – is tall (obv.) and a pretty established limit hold’em player. He also has some pretty solid NL cash and tourney experience, with favorable results.

SRP – has been playing longer than the rest of us and pretty much introduced me to limit hold’em. He has been battling some demons in our local 6/12 game, but has also emerged as a really strong tourney player. He won a tourney based poker league last year and took 8th in a NL tourney at TL in December (the only time that he has played it).

Fries – that’s me – just a poor white man tryin to make it in Bel-Air. I recently moved to 8/16 limit at our home casino and have a reasonable amount of cash NL experience on-line, but wouldn’t call myself a great player by any stretch of the imagination.


Part 1 - Goal Setting and Preparation
Similar to our Vegas trip, there was the standard bravado and bantering going back and forth leading up to the Turtle Lake trip. TL spreads a Saturday tourney (the day of our trip) that SRP had decided that he needed to win in order to offset his recent limit struggles. SF was on the fence about playing the tourney and I had already decided against it. Instead, I set an arbitrary goal of building a $1k stack at the $1/2, $200 buy-in NL game, mainly because I thought a stack like that would look sweet. At some point during the 75 mile car ride (during which SRP made SF sit cross-wise in the back seat of my ’99 Accord so that he could have shot gun), SF decides to play the tourney and tries to convince me as well. I decline, giving my reason as not wanting to play for 3-4 hours, bust out of the money and feel like I wasted my time and cash. He then decides that his goal is to either bust early or make the money, but not get stuck in between.

We get to TL about 11:30, in plenty of time to sign up for the noon tourney. It is a $100 + $15 buy-in, with T4000 in chips, 40 minute levels and blinds starting at 25/50. Not the best structure I have seen, but certainly not the worst. This ends up being the biggest Saturday tourney that they have held, with 101 entrants. SRP and SF draw the 1 and 10 seats at the same table and I get a seat at the only cash game that will be running during the early stages of the tourney.

I haven’t been to TL in over a year, but I really like the room. It is 11 tables on a small (but not confined by any means) loft above the casino. It is non-smoking (except for a cordoned off section away from the tables), has three plasma TVs and free snacks (hot dogs, fruit, etc.). It looks as though they put in some shuffle masters since I was there last and the wait service was prompt (after the initial influx of tourney players).


Part 2 - The cast of characters
I fold my first several hands and size up the players at the table. About what I expected, there are two decent players (other than myself) at a table of ten and they both appear to be waiting for the $2/5NL game to start. Mixed in are a handful of loose-passives, one seemingly tricky LAG (who is way overplaying his hands) and a horribly weak tight girl sitting next to me. Once the decent players leave (which they do about an hour in), this table seems about as perfect as you could ask for.

A description of the tourney players from SRP:

The tournament players were typical – one or two aggressive players who picked their spots wisely amongst a myriad of donkeys playing way too many hands. Throughout the tournament, we ran into a number of players who seriously over-bet their hands. Going all in PF for 4,000 when the blinds are only 100-200 isn’t a particularly smart idea. There was a serious lack of understanding in regard to such relativity, and bets were all over the map.


Part 3 - Getting our feet wet
I pick up a couple pots in the early going after making small raises in position with Axs (once flopping the nut flush and once rivering two pair that was somehow good on a four flush board).

My first notable hand, I pick up AJo in late position and raise one limper to 8. LAG calls on the button (cause that’s what buttons do), BB calls and limper calls. Flop is AT9, with two spades (I have no spades). BB bets 6 (with what I am guessing is ace rag), limper folds, I make it 20 and the button and BB call. Turn is the Jh, BB checks and I bet 50, hoping that the button will fold his flush draw. He calls and the BB folds. The river pairs the T, it goes check, check and the button takes in down with 87o.

I pick up Ah6h on the button and raise one limper to 6. BB calls, limper calls and we see a flop of AT5r. BB checks, limper bets 6, I raise to 20, BB folds and the limper calls. We both check a J on the turn and a Q on the river. He scoops the pot with the nuts (KJo) and leaves to play $2/5. I consider whether I might be in the wrong game, but decide to stay. I add another $80 to top off to 200 and stop to see how the tourney is going. SF and SRP are floating about even. I sweat SF as he cold calls a 3x BB raise with TT in the CO. Flop comes T43, two hearts and they both check. Turn is a blank and SF picks up the pot with a bet. I decide that I am good luck and return to my seat.


Part 4 - Thinking juice
At the first tourney break, SF has about T5900 and SRP has about T5400 in chips. They describe the play as “two card poker” with very few flops being seen after the early stages. The blinds are already like 300/600, or something ridiculous like that.

I fold for awhile, then pick up QQ in MP. I make it 12 after two limpers, button cold calls (you know why), SB calls and limpers call. Flop is Th6s4s (I have the Qs). Checked to me, I bet 30 into a 60 pot (seems a little light, now that I read it) and only the SB calls. Turn is the 2h, he checks and I bet 50 (he has ~150 behind, having just bought in) and he quickly calls. So, according to the little green book, he has to have a draw, otherwise he would have given some consideration to raising or folding. The river is the 6c and he checks again. I decide to check behind, as he isn’t paying me off with a draw. Then, it gets interesting. The SB yells out (literally) “why do I have to show first, if he was betting all the way!”. The puzzled dealer, who up to this point hasn’t said anything, starts to say that showdowns are in turn if the river checks through. I say the same thing in unison and add “but whatever” to the end as I turn over my hand. He mucks and proceeds to tell me for the next five minutes that he made good calls on the flop and turn (he finally claims to have had a flush draw + gutshot). I congratulate him on his calculation of pot odds and we move on.

I win a small pot when JJ flops an overpair and have ~380 in my stack at the start of this hand. One limper, I limp Qc9c in MP, button raises to 6, BB calls, limper calls, I call. Flop is Q72, with one club. Checked to the button who bets 10, BB calls, limper calls, I call. Turn is the 5c and the button bets 10 again. The BB calls, limper folds and I call. River is an offsuit 9 and I donk 30 into the pre-flop raiser, who folds. Now the BB makes it 80 total with about 50 more behind. This one throws me and I think for a good minute. I have no read on the BB, as he sat about 10 minutes ago after busting from the tourney. I couldn’t see him having 86, but a set was a real possibility. Finally, I folded while flashing my cards to the weak tight girl next to me (I figured she would appreciate it). She proceeds to berate me for folding top two on a raggedy board against someone who was in the blind. Yikes…I actually think that I agree with her now.

Next orbit I am dealt QJo in late position and limp after UTG, UTG+1and the weak tight girl (WTG) to my right. Recently, she played AA by raising to 10 PF (and getting 4 callers) and betting 10 on the flop, turn and river. Also, she somehow managed to not get all her chips in on a three way pot with 88 on a board of 2899T with three spades. So she has issues with massively underbetting her big hands. Back to the hand – the button limps, SB calls and the LAG checks in the BB. He has taken his stack from ~600 to the felt and back to ~400 in the couple hours that we have played. Flop is KJJr and the BB leads for 6, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds and WTG makes it 20. I think for a second and raise to 50. Folded back to WTG who starts talking to herself, saying “did your get there already, do you have KJ?”, which actually makes me a bit nervous that she has AJ when she finally calls. Turn is a blank and I put her AI for her last $84. She hems and haws, but finally calls with J9. No help on the river and I scoop a sizable pot.

I had been chatting with WTG prior to the hand and found out that she and her boyfriend (who it turns out played the hand against me with KJo and was getting shelled at the $2/5) were on their way to a concert. I decide that it is time to train for the second main activity in Vegas, what SRP eloquently would call “consuming massive amounts of alcohol”. I am driving home in about 5 hours, so I decide to limit myself to a 6 pack or so and to give myself a few hours of Diet Pepsi before we debark. I need my reaction time to look out for deer on the pitch dark country roads facing us on the ride home. So I race WTG to six beers and I am pretty sure that I win. The wait person does not seem the least bit annoyed when we are ordering another beer every time she brings one. And to top it off, they are $2 for Leinie’s out of the tap, which is not at all shabby.

[KurtSF]

Keep going.

(Yeah, I think your should have called with Q9 too.)

[ungarop]

[ QUOTE ]
It is a $100 + $15 buy-in, with T4000 in chips, 40 minute levels and blinds starting at 25/50. Not the best structure I have seen, but certainly not the worst.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, 40-minute levels and 80BB is not a good structure?

Do the blinds triple or something from level to level?

[Holm Fries]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is a $100 + $15 buy-in, with T4000 in chips, 40 minute levels and blinds starting at 25/50. Not the best structure I have seen, but certainly not the worst.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, 40-minute levels and 80BB is not a good structure?

Do the blinds triple or something from level to level?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that they tripled, but it was a significant increase at each level. I remember thinking that any sort of PF strategy went out of the window after 2 hours. The blinds were high enough were there were a lot of PF pushes.

Next installment coming soon.

HF

[Holm Fries]

Part 5 Dealer Mistakes

The TL dealers were fast and efficient, for the most part. I did run into one who managed to make a series of mistakes during the same down. The worst part is that she let the players argue over the calls (and ultimately make the decision), as opposed to calling the floor. The first instance happened when three new players entered the game at the same time - one in the BB, one UTG and one in the CO. They all post blinds and the dealer starts the action UTG + 1. As I realize what has happened, she is already about half way around the table. I say “time” and let her know that UTG has an option. She says “no”, for some reason, but then gets this puzzled look when she gets to the CO and realizes that he has an option. Everyone voices their opinion, but the whole thing is solved by UTG who says “no” when the dealer asked if he now wanted to raise.

The second issue occurred during a hand where the action began with a call and a fold. At this point the button says “hey, one of my cards is flipped over.” I tell him that I think his hand is dead (because of the action) and the dealer tells me “no”. However, she seems to believe that she can’t deal him another card, saying something about the same player not being allowed to receive two cards from the deck in a row. As the table erupts in discussion / disagreement, I lean forward and quietly tell her to call the floor. She shakes her head, but still doesn’t know what to do. Now, half the table has decided that it is a misdeal and has pushed their cards to the middle. She pushes them back and I tell her (louder this time) to call the floor. Finally, the dealer decides to burn a card (WTF?) and deal the button the next card in the deck, so as to avoid giving him two cards in a row. I fold my hand, tell her that she should consult with the floor to figure out the correct ruling for next time and go to check on the tourney. In general I don’t like to be a nit at the table (I find people are more apt to give their money to a cheerful, affable fellow!), but I do like to see the correct calls made.

The field is about halfway eliminated just prior to the second break. I take a look at SF and SRP’s stacks and they seem to be again treading water. Another break is called with 47 players left of the original 101 and neither one has any notable hands to report. Apparently, SF has position on a squeaky tight guy and is just pummeling his blinds.

Part 6 Two incredible calls

Webster’s defines incredible as something “so extraordinary as to seem impossible”. Note that there is nothing necessarily complimentary about this word - keep that in mind when reading the next two paragraphs.

The first hand starts with me folding and the guy on my left openraising to 16 in UTG + 1. My read on him is that he is far too loose, but probably has a much better sense of the game than most others at the table. He certainly claims to have played more often (five days a week). Three cold callers, including the short stacked SB, who is an absolutely terrible regular. Flop comes 977, with two spades and SB moves in for his last $70 or so dollars. The PF raiser (let’s call him scruffy beard guy or SBG) calls and a limper calls AI for like another 20. The SB shows As6s and the PF raiser turns over AcKc. I was stunned enough to recheck the board. The turn was the Ah, the river a blank. As the SB was standing up to leave, the dealer asked if she could borrow a DVD of Lost from him, even though he was in a bad mood after dropping three racks. I asked SBG how he could make the call and he said that he knew the SB was on a flush draw. Oh, and the AI limper had 99, to win the main pot.

The very next hand SBG makes it 16 to go UTG and is called by the LAG in middle position and the button. He makes a sizable bet that only the LAG calls on the flop and bets 50 into a pot of about 90 on the turn with the board reading AK98r. The LAG pushes for about 300more (the SBG has him covered) and SBG calls instantly with AQo. I was again stunned; the kid did not even hesitate. An ace fell on the river (which I don’t think changed anything) and the LAG mucked without showing. After the hand, SBG leaned over to me and said that he had been waiting all day for the LAG to do that. Funny thing to hope for in my book – I would have hated that spot if I were him.

[ShipitFMA]

A+ would read again

[Holm Fries]

Part 7 Bluffs and Hot Dogs

I had played pretty tight for the first 4 hours or so and felt like I should be splashing around a bit more. I then picked up a couple pots with river bluffs. One hand (9 to the flop for 1 SB) I had bet a flop of 967r with KT in position and got three callers, checked a blank on the turn and bet half the pot when an A fell on the river. Another hand I had A7o in the SB and had called a small bet on a flop of 456r. The turn was a T and checked around and I bet 14 into a ~50 pot on the river when a 4 hit.

Another hand I open-raised with J4o in late position and got called by the button and the BB. Not a typical hand, but J4 has a special spot in my heart. I make a continuation bet on a flop of A23r and both opponents call. The turn is a 9 and it checks around. I fire out 22 when a 3 hits the river and the button minraises me. I contemplate a push, but decide folding is best.

Following this hand I send two hot dogs (supposedly they were brats, but I have my doubts, so let’s call them hot dogs) down to soak up the thinking juice in my stomach. Returning to the table, I find QQ in late position and make it 8 after a couple of limpers. Both blinds call and both limpers call. The flop is a juicy 922 and I bet 30 after being checked to. One of the blinds calls and everyone else folds. The turn is an 8 and we both check. The river is a 3 and the blind pauses a long time before checking. I pause equally long before betting 40 on the river. He calls and mucks when I show. I have built my stack to about $650 at this point.

Part 8 The Final Table

A little after 4PM, I see SRP getting up from his tourney seat and I walk over to him. Rumors of his demise were greatly exaggerated, however, as he was just checking chip stacks at the other table. The tourney was down to 13 players and SRP was dangerously short stacked; he had 9k at this point, with the blinds at 2k/4k. He told me that SF was second in chips at 48k and that the chip leader (both of whom were at their table) had 60k. He was watching the other table because there were some really small stacks resulting in AIs every hand. Clearly, it would have been thoroughly depressing to play five hours of poker only to bust out three spots before the money. SRP returns to his table to find AA in early position, only two spots before his stack would have been decimated by $6k in blinds. He pushes, and his seemingly desperate move is called by KJo from the small blind. Shortly thereafter, he calls an AI from a short-stack with 88; his pair holds up against AQo, adding another $10k to his stack. A couple shorties from the other table bust and the tourney is down to ten. I am psyched and convince my table to join in a round of applause for my comrades.

Inexplicably, both SF and SRP turn down my repeated offers to buy part of their action. Apparently $50 towards the $100 buy-in isn’t quite so attractive when you have already made the money, so my scheme is foiled. However, my thoughts of McDonalds on the way home are quickly turning to thoughts of Chili’s and now I have that rib song in my head. Damnit.

Back at my game, I down a couple coffees and get psyched for a tear. As I am sitting down, I see SBG sadly sending his entire stack (about 300 at this point) across the table to the LAG that he busted earlier. The board is something like A45Q8, with no flush possible. SBG has 23o sitting in front of him and LAG has the nuts. SBG just kept muttering “I shouldn’t have even been in that hand!”

Suddenly, I go from being relatively card dead to playing a lot of hands. I raise AhKh in early position, get several callers and check/fold on an all black flop of 984. I raise AJs and win a medium sized pot with a J high board on the turn. I cold call a raise to 8 with 99 in late position and the flop comes over cards. I limp in with several small pairs and miss them, which is unfortunate because no one seems to be able to let go of top pair in this game. I limp AQo in early position and make a sweet $2 value bet after a Q hits on the river where a board of K348 had been checked around twice. I get called in two spots and am good. I limp/fold several hands like JTs, A10s, KJo and 89s when there is a sizable raise behind me.

I have a little over $600 in my stack when I limp in late position with KTo. Nine players see a flop of QdJs9d. I have the Kd. There is an early position bet of 6 and something like 4 callers to me. I can’t recall being in this situation before (so many callers) and am sort of at a loss as to how much to raise. I finally decide to make it 40 and still get two early position callers (one has about 80 behind, the other less). I push a blank on the turn and get called by the bigger of the two stacks. River is another blank and I take it down (I think I heard “top two” as he was walking away).

I stand up, look across the room and see a couple open seats at the final table of the tourney. SRP and SF look to have roughly equal stacks and are among the chip leaders. SF tells me later of a hand that put a dent into his chip stack:

Insert AJo hand where SF raises to 15k and folds to a push.
Insert any other interesting final table hands.

Minutes later, I see SF get up and walk to the cage to collect his payout. I mouth “what place?” across the room and he holds up five fingers. Nice. I ask “how much?” and he holds up nine fingers. Also nice. Apparently he busted with T5s in the BB when his chip stack had been ground down to a few big blinds.

SRP assumed a commanding position early on at the final table when the cut-off pushed all in with 57s, making an obvious play to steal the rather large blinds. SRP, in the big blind, looked down at QQ and made the call after the small blind folded. After a benign board allowed his QQ to hold up, SRP eliminated another player and increased his stack from $60k to $100k.

[BigBuffet]

[ QUOTE ]
It is a $100 + $15 buy-in, with T4000 in chips, 40 minute levels and blinds starting at 25/50.

[/ QUOTE ]

The website still says 20 minutes rounds. And I called them and they said 20 minute rounds.

Not a good structure. The GC Hinckley has 10k starting chips and 20 minute rounds. So if you like short rounds, go to GC and get 2 1/2 times the chips for just $55 extra ($170 at GC vs $115 at Turtle).

Personally, I think they both are inferior to Canterbury Wed nite which has 4k chips and 30 minute rounds and 150 entries each week. So with almost twice as many entries, you'll make more at Canterbury if you cash. But Canterbury is $200+30.

[Holm Fries]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is a $100 + $15 buy-in, with T4000 in chips, 40 minute levels and blinds starting at 25/50.

[/ QUOTE ]

The website still says 20 minutes rounds. And I called them and they said 20 minute rounds.

Not a good structure. The GC Hinckley has 10k starting chips and 20 minute rounds. So if you like short rounds, go to GC and get 2 1/2 times the chips for just $55 extra ($170 at GC vs $115 at Turtle).

Personally, I think they both are inferior to Canterbury Wed nite which has 4k chips and 30 minute rounds and 150 entries each week. So with almost twice as many entries, you'll make more at Canterbury if you cash. But Canterbury is $200+30.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mistake, thanks for clarifying. This is probably the reason behind the complaints about the structure.

HF

[Holm Fries]

Part 9 Victory!

Even though it is in the 3rd person, SRP wrote this section as well:

By the time the final table was whittled down to only two remaining players SRP’s opponent had a slight chip edge on him. Despite this fact, SRP rejected an offer to chop the money for first and second place. He figured that after six hours of poker, they might as well play it down. There were only a few notable hands that decided the fate of heads-up play. After a few rounds of posturing and pre-flop folding, there was finally a flop. A rainbow flop of Q-6-3 was checked by both players. Both players checked when the turn brought a 7, and SRP’s opponent checked yet again when the river brought a second 6. The pot was $48k at this point, and SRP fired a bet of $50k in an attempt to pick up the pot (his hand was 8-10s). His opponent thought about it for awhile, declared “Well, I’m getting tired anyways,” and tossed in a call. His J9o was good; J-high took down the pot. Needless to say, SRP was a bit baffled (and equally chagrined) by this incredible call.

Shortly thereafter, SRP pushed all in with 44 in the small blind. His opponent called immediately and flipped over AA. SRP stood up and started to gather his things as the dealer began laying out the flop. To his amazement, SRP spiked a 4 on the flop, and his tourney hopes were still alive. Blanks on the turn and river gave the hand to SRP, and he scooped the massive pot as he apologized to his opponent who, by the way, was an incredible sport about the whole thing. This gave SRP a commanding chip lead and it was only one or two more hands before his opponent was all in with only a fraction of the the big blind. SRP preemptively called from the small blind, and the dealer dealt both hands up. SRP won the tournament (perhaps, appropriately) with a J-high hand.

Part 10 NASCAR
After making the obligatory phone calls to boast about his tourney win, SRP joins the $1/2 NL game with me. His only interesting hand came when he picked up QQ in the SB against a button raiser with AA. SRP played the hand well, releasing it early and managing to lose only $25, thanks to a single suited flop.

To his credit, SRP was also instrumental in helping us get one of the three plasma screens in the room turned to MN Wild hockey. Apparently enough requests for NASCAR had come from the tables to turn off the NFL Pro Bowl and tune all the sets to the race. SRP helped rally the table to convince the floor to turn hockey on one set, even if it was in the far corner.

In another hand, I openraise AJs to 12 UTG. I get called by a MP player (who seems relatively competent) and the SB. Flop is J42r and I bet 20 into a pot of about 36. MP calls and the SB folds. The turn is a 3 and I decide to check. At the time, the words “pot control” were running through my head, although I am not sure that I am smart enough to know what that means. MP bets 50 into a 75ish pot. So much for pot control. I really am not sure what to do here, so I ask how much he has behind. It is about 80. I push. He shakes his head and folds.

I have about $750 or so in my stack in an unraised pot with QhJd in late position. The flop is K95, with two hearts. It is checked to me and I bet 6, because I heard that good things happen when you bet. Four people call and the turn is the Th. Checked to me again and I am size up the other stacks in the hand. No one seems to have more than about 120 and there is 40ish in the pot. I push and get called in one spot by a smaller stack. The river is a blank and I stack his KTo.

A few minutes later I limp 8s5s on the button after a few limpers. The blinds check and we see a flop of 3c4c6s. The LAG in the BB bets 6 and I am the only caller. The turn is the 7s, giving me the nuts and a flush draw to go along with it. He bets 10 and I raise to 20. He thinks for awhile and calls. The river is the Jh and he checks to me. I put him on a medium strength hand like TP or two pair and figure that he will pay off a half pot size bet. So I bet 33 into a 60ish pot and he calls quickly. After he mucks, he claims to have had a 5, but I don’t believe him.

Part 11 Victory revisited!
It is 8PM and at this point I decide that the McDonald’s vs. Appleby’s vs. Chili’s has gone on long enough (SF texts me wanting SRP to buy dinner and says that it better be more than a value meal) and we agree to make this the last orbit. My chips are in a castle with varying sized pillars, so it is hard to tell how much I have. It is certainly closer to $900 than $1k though, but I decide to not be disappointed. All in all, I can’t imagine a much better outcome for our group. Last hand of the day SRP folds UTG and starts racking up his checks while I openraise to 8 with AcKc. A MP player and the button call, as does the SB. The flop comes a fantastic QcJc5s and I bet 14 after the SB checks. Both late position players fold and the SB calls. The turn is the 8c and the SB again checks to me. The pot is about 50ish at this point and the SB has about 80 in his stack, so I decide that betting chunks of 30 and 50 should do the trick. He calls the 30 on the turn and checks to me after a blank falls on the river. It takes him about 3 seconds to call the AI with T9o and he just shakes his head when he sees my hand.

I fill five racks and have a beautiful $22 left over to beat my goal of $1k. We hit the road and make a brief stop at Chili’s before heading to the homestead, exhausted after a full day of poker.

Final tallies:
HF SF SRP
Dollars won 722 ? 2,720
Beers consumed 6 ? 2
Opponents stacked 6 ? ???
Hot dogs eaten 2 ? 5