ALCS - Indians vs Red Sox

[MuresanForMVP]

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Beef, I'm still waiting for an argument from you in favor of Carmona having the best stuff since Pedro lol

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Name me one pitcher since Pedro who has a pitch that moves that much that consistantly. I will help you out since I have come up with one and only one....Kevin Brown. Trust me, I know my baseball. I have been watching this guy all season long and he is nothing short of absolutely filthy, much like Pedro was back in his day.

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So are you saying he has the best stuff or the best 1 pitch that moves the most? What pitch of Pedro's? He had 4 above average to WELL above average pitches. I dont wanna rehash this again, considering in previous posts I mentioned a number of guys that have a better arsenal than Carmona. Even with that being said, Mo Rivera's cutter has definitely withstood the test of time, and in his prime I would take that over Carmona's sinker anyday.

Maybe i'm starting to understand it a bit differently. Are you saying that considering all the different pitchers since Pedro, and all their top pitches, Carmona's sinking fastball is the best? Is that what you're saying? If you are I still say there's no chance. Or are you comparing it to other fastballs? Other sinkers? What ARE you trying to say?

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He is as unhittable when he has control of his stuff as anyone since Pedro in his hey day (relief pitching is a whole different animal from throwing 6-7 innings every time you tow the rubber....mariano, troy percival, krod are all pretty nasty, but until they do it for the long haul, i don't count them in that list.)

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Forgive me if I don't put a lot of stock in it when you use the qualifier "when he controls his stuff". Tons of guys are nearly unhittable when they control their stuff. He is one of many guys with that kind of electricity in his pitches. One of many, not the "best since".

[NT!]

being a great starter isn't just about being unhittable when you control your stuff. it's about being tough to hit day in and day out. i think there are a bunch of guys who have 'stuff' that is as nasty as carmona's, if not in the form of one dominant pitch, then as part of a whole arsenal. the bad thing about having one dominant pitch is if it's not working or fooling anybody, it's a lot harder to get by.

that's why pedro was so [censored] good in his prime. he had five plus pitches and threw from three different arm angles. even if three of his five pitches were only so-so on a given day, he could still be tough to hit.

[James282]

carmona has had a really good season. are you guys really comparing anything about him to Pedro in his prime? there is not even any remote comparison. Use any metric you want. If Carmona ever has a K/BB total of 313-37 or 284-32(IN THE AL EAST), I will give everyone on this forum 5 thousand dollars. Kevin Brown represents Carmona's upside - Pedro represents the best talent in the next 20 years upside.

James

[Thremp]

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Pedro represents the best talent in the next 20 years upside.

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Pedro's peak makes Koufax get wet dreams.

[MuresanForMVP]

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carmona has had a really good season. are you guys really comparing anything about him to Pedro in his prime? there is not even any remote comparison. Use any metric you want. If Carmona ever has a K/BB total of 313-37 or 284-32(IN THE AL EAST), I will give everyone on this forum 5 thousand dollars. Kevin Brown represents Carmona's upside - Pedro represents the best talent in the next 20 years upside.

James

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QFT... god damn watching him pitch in his prime was just surreal. I was at his game where he spun a 16k, 2 hit shutout against the Orioles. Just...wow. My uncle knew the Sox' strength coach at the time and he was nice enough to get Pedro to sign a ball for me

[legend42]

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"When one has been playing this game for a long time, you learn to deal with pain," Ortiz said. "This is no time for crying. But I really want this season to be over to undergo knee surgery."[/i]

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Wow, that sucks. I would think (hope) the interview was in Spanish, and that quote wasn't translated with the most faithful accuracy, as far as the implications of that statement are concerned.

[legend42]

Also, looking ahead to a possible WS, it seems unlikely that Ortiz could play 1st base. Which would kind of suck. Kirk Gibson, anyone?

[LBJ]

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carmona has had a really good season. are you guys really comparing anything about him to Pedro in his prime? there is not even any remote comparison.

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I've heard this mentioned a bunch of times during this debate.

No one is comparing Fausto to Pedro at all. The original omment was "Fausto has some of the best stuff since Pedro." If Pedro was 100-0 with a 0.00 ERA in his prime, that would not effect this debate. He clearly is saying Fausto has some of the best stuff SINCE Pedro, meaning Pedro is superior in a large or small degree. The comparison is not Fausto vs Pedro but is however Fausto vs pitchers with nasty stuff since Pedro's peak.

[MuresanForMVP]

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carmona has had a really good season. are you guys really comparing anything about him to Pedro in his prime? there is not even any remote comparison.

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I've heard this mentioned a bunch of times during this debate.

No one is comparing Fausto to Pedro at all. The original omment was "Fausto has some of the best stuff since Pedro." If Pedro was 100-0 with a 0.00 ERA in his prime, that would not effect this debate. He clearly is saying Fausto has some of the best stuff SINCE Pedro, meaning Pedro is superior in a large or small degree. The comparison is not Fausto vs Pedro but is however Fausto vs pitchers with nasty stuff since Pedro's peak.

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He specifically said "the best stuff since Prime Pedro", and sent this to me via PM : [ QUOTE ]
I vividly remember pedro being able to make a ball violently rise to the left,right, straight up, down, down and to the left, down and to the right, and vary his speeds on all of them. He could make a baseball move in ungodly ways. I have not seen anyone else be able to do this until Fausto came along. This is a precise definition of having the best stuff since Pedro.

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Take from that what you will.

[MasterShakeSon]

good stuff