river raise - standard or too thin?

[fitnessfreak]

i am just getting back into playing limit again so some of the hands i post here might be very standard/bad, so for that i apologise in advance.

anyways, both villains in this hand were huge donks, running in the 40 vpip range and call down with anything. i didnt want to raise the flop and let the guy in between out if the original bettor 3bet his top pair no kicker hand or whatever other crap he was holding, and i wanted to get them for the big bets on the turn. not sure if this is bad in itself?
the river bettor is not very aggro from what ive seen so far, so i kind of got a little worried given his turn 3bet and thought maybe i should just call down. is this too weak?

Party Poker, $3/$6 Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG calls, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, BTN folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls

Flop: (8 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls

Turn: (5.5 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises</font>, <font color="red">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, UTG calls

River: (14.5 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls/raises??

[mute]

Raising would be spew, IMO. I would just call even if it was HU. With a player behind you it's an easy decision to go for the overcall.

[Apanage]

I would go for an overcall.If it were HU I would raise.I think we are ahead of UTG enough to raise.
But your flop play is bad.Just jam the flop.

[rzk]

i think you need to raise the flop here so that you can get a chance to 3bet a turn check/raise.

as for the river, i agree with mute. after you showed so much strength on the turn, utg's river bet is clearly for value. he usually has AQ or a full house (most likely A4 but possibly AA). AQ and AA need to be discounted because he didn't raise preflop. AQ needs to be further discounted because often he realizes he might be dealing with a straight. that means you have less than 65% equity. additional considerations:

-going for the overcall will often net you the exact same number of bets as raising. that's a clear argument for calling.
-sometimes, however, if you raise, sb will still call, netting you 2 extra bets. that's an argument for raising, but that won't happen very often.

on the balance of things, i think calling is better.

[efficacy]

1) there are some very tough 40% vpip players

2) some people limp big pairs and fail to reraise when given the opportunity

3) just call river and go for an overcall. you might win 2BBs by just calling, and when you raise you still might win only 2BBs but you risk losing 3BBs.

[fitnessfreak]

[ QUOTE ]
1) there are some very tough 40% vpip players

2) some people limp big pairs and fail to reraise when given the opportunity

3) just call river and go for an overcall. you might win 2BBs by just calling, and when you raise you still might win only 2BBs but you risk losing 3BBs.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like all these points, and i also think in hindsight my flop call sucks for reasons mentioned above.

i should have included in my OP that both players had over 40 vpip but less than 15 pfr. im fairly unfamiliar with preflop stats and what is considered optimal but i would guess that with vpip and pfr that far apart i can assume that they are probably bad? please correct me if im off here.

[MacGuyV]

"Huge donk" = raise IMO. He could've just been slowplaying top 2 on the flop &amp; not have a 4, the other guy can easily call 2 cold w/ an Ace, and the only reason to donk 4's full would be fear of getting 3bet if he checkraised which means he probably won't 3bet. Also raise the flop.

[Leader]

Easy raise IMO on both the flop and the river. A hand that beats you really doesn't make much sense here. Plus SB just called two on the turn. Hopefully he'll do the same now.

[TheHip41]

the flop call is just so, so bad.

You have 3 players trapped on the flop, just start raising.

On the river, you have the nuts, so raise.

[Palomino]

Um, hip? did you really read the HH? He's very likely beat by a boat on the riv, especially looking at the way the hand was played. I just call the river donk bet.