Small Pocket Pairs?

[Shaqizzle]

Just need a refresher, So with low PP, I usually raise 3xbb then hope that a set comes out or low cards.

But do most people just fold them if lots of high cards on the board, and a bet in front of them?

I'm just curious because I literally just got 5 hand in a row ranging from pocket 4's to pocket jacks.

[GoDownSwingn]

With small pocket pairs I think the general idea is to keep the pot small and try and hit your set. Raising with a low pair out of position not only makes you vulnerable to a position reraise, but if you don't hit your set chances are you're not going to win the pot. Position really helps with pairs as you can limp without the fear of a reraise.

Try getting into the hand with a multi-way small pot and hope for the set. Good chance to get paid off if you do.

[rodders133]

I would never raise with a small to med pp in early pos. If i limped and there was a raise behind me I would evaluate the price i was getting to call, and most importantly my opponents stack size. If the raise came from a low stack, I would probably muck. If it was from a stack equal to or greater than my own, i would be more inclined to call, as, if he was raising with a legitimate hand you could quite well take his whole stack if you hit your set. My own rule of thumb is that if 2 or more overcards come on the flop, I am done with the hand

[lucky_mf]

I think that it depends what sort of games you are playing. If it is a more aggressive game you are just not going to be able to limp profitably. In this case raising is probably better than folding, depending on the players in the game and their tendencies. Raising provides the additional benefit of broadening your early position raising range, making it somewhat more likely that you will get action when you raise your premium hands UTG (this only matters if people are paying attention). If you are playing a passive game with very little pre-flop raising and lots of people seeing the flop, you can probably limp profitably.

Lucky

Edit: Even in an aggressive game over-limping with pps is fine. Typically you don't want to raise an early position limper with 44.

[thoman8r]

It's important to know whether OP is talking about 6-max or full ring, because they are totally different situations.

6-max you should be open-raising any pocket pair from any position.

As far as what to do post-flop when you whiff, it depends a lot on your position, reads on your opponents, the texture of the board, and how many opponents you are up against. At micro limits, I am pretty much betting 100% of the time on K-x-x flops against 1 or 2 opponents. On A-x-x flops I may check or bet depending on the villain. If I am bet into here I am usually through with the hand, absent a strong read on the villain.

[lucky_mf]

[ QUOTE ]
6-max you should be open-raising any pocket pair from any position.

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I'm pretty sure this will get an inexperienced player in trouble in some games - maybe even a typical micro limit game.

Example: Fishy micro-stakes game. You raise 33 UTG to 4bb and get two callers. The flop comes 4 8 2 rainbow. You bet and get a caller. The problem is that you have no idea whether your 3s are best as the players you are playing against are likely to call your continuation bet with anything. Now you have to decide whether to bet again or to check try and check down two streets - what do you do if the guy bets on the river after two more non-scary cards?.

These hands require some skill and the right type of table to raise unconditionally. At this type of super-fishy table you don't need the raise to sweeten the pot so it is easier to play for stacks when you hit a set. If the other players make a decent hand they are stacking off. Additionally, you don't need to raise to preempt a raise as the guys behind you are fairly passive pre-flop generally.

Lucky

[thoman8r]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6-max you should be open-raising any pocket pair from any position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure this will get an inexperienced player in trouble in some games - maybe even a typical micro limit game.

Example: Fishy micro-stakes game. You raise 33 UTG to 4bb and get two callers. The flop comes 4 8 2 rainbow. You bet and get a caller. The problem is that you have no idea whether your 3s are best as the players you are playing against are likely to call your continuation bet with anything. Now you have to decide whether to bet again or to check try and check down two streets - what do you do if the guy bets on the river after two more non-scary cards?.

These hands require some skill and the right type of table to raise unconditionally. At this type of super-fishy table you don't need the raise to sweeten the pot so it is easier to play for stacks when you hit a set. If the other players make a decent hand they are stacking off. Additionally, you don't need to raise to preempt a raise as the guys behind you are fairly passive pre-flop generally.

Lucky

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think raising makes the hand easier to play. At micro limits (at least the 10NL tables I play at), you are going to take down the blinds a good percentage of the time, get maybe 1 or 2 callers a decent percentage, and get re-raised very infrequently (and when you do get re-raised, often it is an amount that allows you to call for implied odds). On an 8-4-2 flop I'll c-bet 100% of the time and usually take it down. Yes, if I get a caller I have to make a decision but a lot of times a typical 10NL donk will lead out for a very small amount if checked to (1/5 of the pot or even less) and you can usually get to a showdown cheap. If they actually make a real bet you can fold the hand confidently.

[lucky_mf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
6-max you should be open-raising any pocket pair from any position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure this will get an inexperienced player in trouble in some games - maybe even a typical micro limit game.

Example: Fishy micro-stakes game. You raise 33 UTG to 4bb and get two callers. The flop comes 4 8 2 rainbow. You bet and get a caller. The problem is that you have no idea whether your 3s are best as the players you are playing against are likely to call your continuation bet with anything. Now you have to decide whether to bet again or to check try and check down two streets - what do you do if the guy bets on the river after two more non-scary cards?.

These hands require some skill and the right type of table to raise unconditionally. At this type of super-fishy table you don't need the raise to sweeten the pot so it is easier to play for stacks when you hit a set. If the other players make a decent hand they are stacking off. Additionally, you don't need to raise to preempt a raise as the guys behind you are fairly passive pre-flop generally.

Lucky

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think raising makes the hand easier to play. At micro limits (at least the 10NL tables I play at), you are going to take down the blinds a good percentage of the time, get maybe 1 or 2 callers a decent percentage, and get re-raised very infrequently (and when you do get re-raised, often it is an amount that allows you to call for implied odds). On an 8-4-2 flop I'll c-bet 100% of the time and usually take it down. Yes, if I get a caller I have to make a decision but a lot of times a typical 10NL donk will lead out for a very small amount if checked to (1/5 of the pot or even less) and you can usually get to a showdown cheap. If they actually make a real bet you can fold the hand confidently.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm playing in different games (with tougher opponents) which may flavor my observations. I've looked at this issue a bit using the PT filters and I find that raising first in from EP or MP in a 6-handed cash game is a good strategy if you I can get the pot HU (giving a C-bet a chance). Once there are more than 3 players seeing the flop (as would be typical in a fish micro stakes game) the small pocket pairs become unprofitable to open from UTG or MP. Some of this might have to do with the fact that they players playing behind me are tougher than the ones I would be facing in a 10NL game.

Lucky

[SaErDnaW]

I almost always raise with PP in any position in 6-max game. I also call a decent raise if the stacks are deep.

Raising gives me control. If I miss the flop I c-bet. If I get called or raised I have to evaluate. If I hit the flop I will bet also of course. There are more ways to win than hit a set...

When I flop a set in an unraised pot I often find it very difficult to build a big pot, I will often only win the blinds...

You maybe don't agree, but I find raising is better than limping in almost all cases.

[gedanken]

we need to know how many players at the table, general idea of the opponents (what level are we at), tourney/cash, and stack sizes.

6-max, NL cash, 100BB+ stacks 50nl down to about 2c/5cNL, I think a raise is mandatory because I have difficulty getting lots of money in post if we all limped. (below that, getting money in is rarely a problem. above 10nl, I'm going by what I've heard).

I play tight-aggro, though, so when I limp, then start betting some weak looking flop, people are cautious. Setmining works best for me when it looks like a bluff.

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I think raising makes the hand easier to play.

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qft

I also let small pp mix up my cbetting -- these are the sort of hands I don't always cbet. 44 on a JT8 2-suited flop with two opponents? I've found a check-fold. Otherwise I'm cbetting everything, which is too transparent even for 10nl 6-max.