On being self-centered

[guids]

[felson]

[ QUOTE ]
Felson,
first off thanks for such detailed responses.

[ QUOTE ]
Heat is an objective reality. Without heat, the first law of thermodynamics (conservation of energy) would not be true. So heat is a real property quantified in physics, not a human-imposed judgment


[/ QUOTE ]

I think our misunderstanding is coming from what we're assuming heat means. When I say "heat depends on humans for interpretation" I'm talking about the sense-data heat that is linked with the movement of particles that people commonly talk about when they say something like "its hot." When you're saying it, you're saying heat is the movement of those particles.

The quantification of heat is done by considering the collective velocity of groups of molecules, and is a quality in an object in that it is what we call the movement of those particles... but how is heat not nothing more than sentient interpretation of those moving particles? In places where there is no life, moving particles aren't hot or cold - they're just moving particles. The moving particles exist without humans, heat does not.

Could you go into more depth about why heat should be considered objective reality? There's a good chance I don't know enough of the science right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

A dictionary check shows that "heat (noun)" has multiple definitions, including both thermal energy as well as the sensation that it produces. My point is that when we feel heat, it corresponds to something real -- the thermal energy, which (as you noted) exists independent of our perception.

Similarly, when (most) people feel intuitively that an act is right or wrong, I believe that it also corresponds to something real, independent of our perception. Now, that's not something that I can prove by appealing to physics.

But to say that right/wrong and heat are both imposed judgments is not completely correct. Our feeling of heat is a perception of something real.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

If there's no such thing as "wrong," then it can't be "wrong" to consider only what you want.


[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute moral right and wrong is not the same thing as choosing a "better" (more rational option). If I hold that there is no right or wrong, it seems like I am committed to the position that there's no reason not to prefer the utility afforded by rational decisions to the lack of utility afforded by making rational decisions as these are are just things that I've been trained to prefer; again, "utility" is not an objective quality of the world. But if part of human nature includes pleasure-seeking, which seems self-evident, it is clear why I may prefer the simplicity and convenience that lead to pleasure that rational decisions tend to give me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are saying that in the absence of right and wrong, your objective is to maximize personal utility. In that case, I don't have much to add beyond the last two paragraphs of my prior post and what El Diablo and others have written.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
Art/Bruise,
Do you guys really get something out of making fun of people that aren't as smart as you? What purpose does it serve for you?

Its cool if someone who is smart is self-centered, but not if someone who is dumb is? Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

im confused on what you're getting at but yeah it can be pretty funny. someone who is smart and self centered realizes that the best way to be happy is by acting in a manner that might not appear to be self centered, like cutting off a leg to save a favorite dog because that's what a crazed maniac demands. someone who is stupid and self centered might not pick up some milk at the store for a friend that he is going to anyway because he only does stuff that is good for him, but he doesn't realize it would be good for him to maintain the friendship by being nice to friend

[KJS]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people say that being self-centered is a bad thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

For me, when I use this term in a pejorative way it is because I find the person not friend material. More specifically, I don't want to be around them much because of their me-first attitude.

Why: hard to make plans with because selfish whims may get in the way; hard to make plans with because they do not compromise on a place or activity not of interest to them; not fun to converse with because they don't show interest in things/subjects not directly related to them; not empathetic to the plight of others which often means general douchey behavior.

I am not going to try to talk people out of being like this. If that is their bag, fine. But I am not going to hang out with them either.

KJS

[Anzat]

[ QUOTE ]
OP, the only reason to sacrifice any of your own happiness for another is if it will set a good example that will hopefully induce similar behavior. The idea being that the more people behave this way, the greater the overall gain for all of the people involved. Take your scenario:

[ QUOTE ]


choice B - brings me 10HP and you 5HP
choice C - brings me 12HP and doesn't affect you

...

I think many would maintain that I should choose C, but why?


[/ QUOTE ]

If you were a complete douchebag with no chance of changing the way you think and act, or if you were going to die 5 seconds after this, then I would choose C every time. There is no way that me helping you is going beyond this point, so screw that I'll take my extra +2 HP.

However, if you were a friend of mine or any person that I considered at least a little bit impressionable, I'd pick B every time. The idea is that you'll see me make a small sacrifice for your greater gain, and hopefully you will be induced to make similar sacrifices for others. Maybe you'll be nice to somebody, who will be nice to somebody, who in turn will help me out at some point. So by taking a small hit for the larger gain of another, I am increasing the chance that others will make intelligent sacrifices that help me (albeit in a possibly roundabout fashion).

If enough people follow this pattern, making decisions based on the overall happiness of humanity instead of themselves, then the overall amount of happiness in the world will increase, which by default must come back around and help every person in it. Call me idealistic or unrealistic, but I would bet good money that the lot of people in the world classified as "self centered" are significantly less happy than those who are not, because the community of non-self-centered people are regularly making sacrifices for the greater good (of other people that they consider non-self-centered), and the community as a whole cannot help but prosper. People who are considered @ssholes generally get ostracized from this behavior and reap siginificantly less benefit.


There's no guarantee that this works and I have no idea how much my altruistic actions have actually had a positive effect worth the sacrifices, but I'd like to think that there's a chance that it works. Not so much because it paints a pretty picture of the world, but more because the alternative view of the world flat-out sucks.


Everett

[/ QUOTE ]

All this argument does is redefine Choice B to something like: Choice B brings me 13 HP and you 5 HP.

[kidcolin]

[ QUOTE ]
Art/Bruise,
Do you guys really get something out of making fun of people that aren't as smart as you? What purpose does it serve for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

They get a real kick out of it. They're just being self centered. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Stuey]

[ QUOTE ]
Stuey,
You said its impossible for you to choose option A, but upon further consideration I think this is highly unlikely.

Lets say Donald Trump comes up to you and offers you an arbitrarily large amount of money to stomp on somebody's foot and run away. You can't tell them why or give them money or contact them afterwards or your money will be forfeit.

Surely you will piss the person off, and cause them some -HP, but you expect lots and lots of future +HP from your money. Would you really turn Trump down?

[/ QUOTE ]

First off you got it backwards or I got confused when I answered you. I said it was impossible for me to be upset if someone stomped on my foot but they seemed really happy about it. My foot would hurt but if they enjoyed it that much I would let them stomp it again.

Yes I might take Trumps money but I think you would be very surprised how much money it would need to be and what I would do with it. For me true happiness is telling the Trumps of this world their money means nothing to me. Don't get me wrong I love money I just feel having it is meaningless if it was not earned. Only someone that did not earn the money would pay you enough to stomp a foot imo.

I am pretty sure you won't believe me but no biggie. I don't believe you are as self-centered as you like to think you are and you will never convince me otherwise.
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[Shadowrun]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stuey,
You said its impossible for you to choose option A, but upon further consideration I think this is highly unlikely.

Lets say Donald Trump comes up to you and offers you an arbitrarily large amount of money to stomp on somebody's foot and run away. You can't tell them why or give them money or contact them afterwards or your money will be forfeit.

Surely you will piss the person off, and cause them some -HP, but you expect lots and lots of future +HP from your money. Would you really turn Trump down?

[/ QUOTE ]

First off you got it backwards or I got confused when I answered you. I said it was impossible for me to be upset if someone stomped on my foot but they seemed really happy about it. My foot would hurt but if they enjoyed it that much I would let them stomp it again.

Yes I might take Trumps money but I think you would be very surprised how much money it would need to be and what I would do with it. For me true happiness is telling the Trumps of this world their money means nothing to me. Don't get me wrong I love money I just feel having it is meaningless if it was not earned. Only someone that did not earn the money would pay you enough to stomp a foot imo.

I am pretty sure you won't believe me but no biggie. I don't believe you are as self-centered as you like to think you are and you will never convince me otherwise.
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

actually based on your posts, i would be surprised if ANY amount of money would make you stomp on his foot.

[Stuey]

Shadowrun,

Ideally if no one ever knows I turned it down yah I tell him no just to make some kind of weird statement. I love a weird statement even when I don't really get it. Thing is if people know i turned it down they are going to give me guilt about the good things I could have done with the money so i take it mainly from peer pressure.

[Emperor]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people say that being self-centered is a bad thing.

Why?

In some sense each individual is alone. Only he makes choices and only he is responsible for them. Does it follow that his fundamental - and only necessary - concern is how those choices effect him? If not, why should he worry about how those choices effect others in a way that is not rooted in his own happiness?

Why should anyone consider anything but their own well-being?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma