**** ALDS GAME 4 Tribe/Yanks (Byrd vs. Wang)****

[LBJ]

I guess I was a little short so I'll expand. Many hitters have been quoted as saying Carmona has the nastiest stuff in the league. I'm not going to go that far (although the hitters' opinions should be the only ones that matter), but V Martinez said Carmona could get by by throwing his sinking fastball >90% of the time. I've watched nearly every start of his this year, there's no doubt that his sinking fastball that can get mid 90's yet have so much sinking action is one of the best three in the league.

[MuresanForMVP]

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I guess I was a little short so I'll expand. Many hitters have been quoted as saying Carmona has the nastiest stuff in the league. I'm not going to go that far (although the hitters' opinions should be the only ones that matter), but V Martinez said Carmona could get by by throwing his sinking fastball >90% of the time. I've watched nearly every start of his this year, there's no doubt that his sinking fastball that can get mid 90's yet have so much sinking action is one of the best three in the league.

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A lot of that is obvious hyperbole. Simply saying that some hitters said it was the nastiest stuff in the league or that Carmona's catcher pumped him up by saying he could get by as a starter only throwing his sinker doesn't really mean much. Remember, Beef said that Carmona had the best stuff since '99 Pedro, and I lol'ed at that. That is what I was debating, and saying that someone has "some of the nastiest stuff in the league" shows that he is AMONG the best stuff in the league right now. Even if I were to concede that, then you'd still have to put him up against all the lights-out pitchers from the past 8 years.

Besides, a lot of pitchers have had an 80 pitch before, but you don't just go throwing around the best stuff label without something to back it up other than a couple players' off hand quotes, including his own catcher. Mo Rivera DOES get by throwing only a fastball, so should you not concede that his fastball is better than Carmona's?

[EMc]

This wsa the first time in years I felt like we had a shot, we were gonna pull through. It was interesting, after Cano's HR a cool breeze started in the stadium, it had been so hot way before that. It felt like october weather, and Jeter was up. It just felt like it was gonna happen. And it didnt.

[ArchAngel71857]

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I guess I was a little short so I'll expand. Many hitters have been quoted as saying Carmona has the nastiest stuff in the league. I'm not going to go that far (although the hitters' opinions should be the only ones that matter), but V Martinez said Carmona could get by by throwing his sinking fastball >90% of the time. I've watched nearly every start of his this year, there's no doubt that his sinking fastball that can get mid 90's yet have so much sinking action is one of the best three in the league.

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A lot of that is obvious hyperbole. Simply saying that some hitters said it was the nastiest stuff in the league or that Carmona's catcher pumped him up by saying he could get by as a starter only throwing his sinker doesn't really mean much. Remember, Beef said that Carmona had the best stuff since '99 Pedro, and I lol'ed at that. That is what I was debating, and saying that someone has "some of the nastiest stuff in the league" shows that he is AMONG the best stuff in the league right now. Even if I were to concede that, then you'd still have to put him up against all the lights-out pitchers from the past 8 years.

Besides, a lot of pitchers have had an 80 pitch before, but you don't just go throwing around the best stuff label without something to back it up other than a couple players' off hand quotes, including his own catcher. Mo Rivera DOES get by throwing only a fastball, so should you not concede that his fastball is better than Carmona's?

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I specifically remember Torri Hunter saying that no right hander had a chance against Carmona. Link

After Game 2 of the ALDS, Ryan Garko said that he noticed all season long that when players would reach first, they would talk about how they hated facing Carmona (i can't find the exact quote, it's somewhere close to the quote where Garko says he played in the DR with Carmona last year and the bugs down there would eat you alive, so there's no reason Carmona would be bothered by the bugs in Game 2).

As far as Carmona having the best stuff since '99 Pedro or having the best stuff in the league, it looks like I can do some random stat searches at work. HOORAY!

-AA

[MuresanForMVP]

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I guess I was a little short so I'll expand. Many hitters have been quoted as saying Carmona has the nastiest stuff in the league. I'm not going to go that far (although the hitters' opinions should be the only ones that matter), but V Martinez said Carmona could get by by throwing his sinking fastball >90% of the time. I've watched nearly every start of his this year, there's no doubt that his sinking fastball that can get mid 90's yet have so much sinking action is one of the best three in the league.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of that is obvious hyperbole. Simply saying that some hitters said it was the nastiest stuff in the league or that Carmona's catcher pumped him up by saying he could get by as a starter only throwing his sinker doesn't really mean much. Remember, Beef said that Carmona had the best stuff since '99 Pedro, and I lol'ed at that. That is what I was debating, and saying that someone has "some of the nastiest stuff in the league" shows that he is AMONG the best stuff in the league right now. Even if I were to concede that, then you'd still have to put him up against all the lights-out pitchers from the past 8 years.

Besides, a lot of pitchers have had an 80 pitch before, but you don't just go throwing around the best stuff label without something to back it up other than a couple players' off hand quotes, including his own catcher. Mo Rivera DOES get by throwing only a fastball, so should you not concede that his fastball is better than Carmona's?

[/ QUOTE ]

I specifically remember Torri Hunter saying that no right hander had a chance against Carmona. Link

After Game 2 of the ALDS, Ryan Garko said that he noticed all season long that when players would reach first, they would talk about how they hated facing Carmona (i can't find the exact quote, it's somewhere close to the quote where Garko says he played in the DR with Carmona last year and the bugs down there would eat you alive, so there's no reason Carmona would be bothered by the bugs in Game 2).

As far as Carmona having the best stuff since '99 Pedro or having the best stuff in the league, it looks like I can do some random stat searches at work. HOORAY!

-AA

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You can find stats regarding how good someone's raw stuff is? Fausto= nasty, but is his overall stuff package better than Peavy's? What about Beckett, Verlander,Santana from a couple years ago, Felix Hernandez, Mo Rivera, hell even Chamberlain, etc,etc? I'd say probably not, but maybe he just needs a couple years,and I need to see more of him.

But do you realize that you guys have mentioned what Hunter has said about 3 different times as if repeating it would convince me? I'd be more interested in hearing the thoughts from scouts around the league rather than Torri Hunter, Ryan Garko, and Victor Martinez.

[JordanIB]

ROFL Suzyn crying about the coaches crying.

LOLOLOL. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Yankee draaaaammmmmaaaaaa

[FlyWf]

Did you watch game 2? Carmona has absolutely absurd movement on his pitches. He has unbelievable stuff. For a starting pitcher he's comfortably in the "best since Pedro" range, albeit with some other guys, but it's not a ridiculous thing to say.

[censored], just watch the ARod at bat at the end of the game. That was after throwing 110 pitches.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

sinkerballs, when on, look awesome. Derek Lowe went through a stretch like Carmona in the 2004 playoffs.

pitching on 2 days rest in game 7 of the ALCS, he held the Yankees to one run over six innings

then in game 4 of the ALCS, he allowing no runs and 3 hits in 7 innings.

but the 'best stuff' since Pedro for Carmona is ridiculous. he doesn't even have the best stuff on his own team.

[MuresanForMVP]

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Did you watch game 2? Carmona has absolutely absurd movement on his pitches. He has unbelievable stuff. For a starting pitcher he's comfortably in the "best since Pedro" range, albeit with some other guys, but it's not a ridiculous thing to say.

[censored], just watch the ARod at bat at the end of the game. That was after throwing 110 pitches.

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What's that phrase you guys use around here all the time? "Sample size"? I could find a single start from any one of those guys I listed where they dominated and just be like "look here I told you so!" Verlander throws 100mph and he gets a whole [censored]- ton of movement on it, and his curveball is absurd. Beckett gets ridiculous movement on 96-97mph fastballs (though he throws upwards around 99), and his curveball is a "snap-dragon" according to scouts. Hell, in his 4-hit shutout he was throwing 98 in the 9th inning. Peavy looks like he's a pitcher from the NES game Base Wars. Rivera has thrown a single pitch for basically his entire career and has a .78 ERA in about 120 postseason IPs. Hernandez throws 99 with outstanding breaking stuff. Joba touches 100, and has an unfair slider. Santana used to throw 97 with the best changeup in the game (as a lefty). Yet you toss all that out because a guy throws a mid 90's sinker? IMO everyone of those guys have better overall stuff than Carmona, and though it may be close, it's also pretty obvious.

[ArchAngel71857]

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You can find stats regarding how good someone's raw stuff is? Fausto= nasty, but is his overall stuff package better than Peavy's? What about Beckett, Verlander,Santana from a couple years ago, Felix Hernandez, Mo Rivera, hell even Chamberlain, etc,etc? I'd say probably not, but maybe he just needs a couple years,and I need to see more of him.

But do you realize that you guys have mentioned what Hunter has said about 3 different times as if repeating it would convince me? I'd be more interested in hearing the thoughts from scouts around the league rather than Torri Hunter, Ryan Garko, and Victor Martinez.

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I think I misread your earlier post, I thought you were looking for players' quotes (Garko didn't talk about Carmona, he talked about what OTHER players said about Carmona. But I digest).

Anyway, here is a blurb from the Game 2 ALDS preview of USA Today:

Link to Full Article

Carmona rates a 60 on the scouting 20-80 scale, which evaluates raw pitching tools. By comparison, Johan Santana of the Minnesota Twins gets a 75. Based on his raw pitching tools and actual results, we categorize Carmona as "Good" on a marginal/key role/average/good/premium/elite scale. A few more years of production like 2007 and Carmona will move to "Premium".

C.C. Sabathia rates a 70 on the scale and so does Wang. And here is Carmona's report card from the ESPN web site (I don't think you need to be an Insider to see it):

Carmona Report Card - B+

As far as the 20-80 scale goes, its a tool used by scouts to rate players. For pitchers they look at pithces, command and composure. a brief explanation of how they rate players (pitchers are at the bottom):

20-80 scale faq

I'll see what else I can find.

-AA

And just a question - if Carmona was wearing a Red Sox or Yankees jersey, would you be convinced then?