FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board

[HatesLosing]

balto, i don't mind limping with hands like AA/KK now and then, but i don't subscribe to harrington's idea to do it at random. i like to do it when i'm pretty sure someone behind me WILL raise who would have otherwise folded if i had raised. if the guy is probably going to be on my immediate left and is over aggressive, i specifically like this because he can raise, i can see what everyone else does pf, then i get to close the action. if everyone else folds, i have the option of smooth calling. if there is one or more calls, i can re-raise and win a much sweeter pot than the blinds/antes. obviously, there is a place for limping with big pairs at later stages in a tournament where there are lots of short stacks that are desperate and moving all-in every hand, but folding to a raise in front of them.

again, i like limping at times with big pairs, but i like to do it for a reason rather than on a purely random "mix it up" whim.

edit: i don't like being in the spot you are where reads are tough and you're OOP. i'm fairly good at putting my opponents on a range of hands in other spots, but not in a spot like this, which is why *for me*, this is a spot where i see no point in going broke.

[HatesLosing]

Well, if you NEVER limp with big pairs, then you shouldn't be interested in this thread so don't reply at all. If you do limp once in a while, then once in a while you'll find yourself in a position where you *thought* there would be a raise behind you, but there wasn't, and then maybe you do get interested in this thread.

It's funny how some people seem to never make mistakes and know everything, yet have a significantly lower ROI than other people that willingly admit their mistakes. I'm not specifically referring to anyone in particular here, but I'm always amused (and sometimes disgusted) by that.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you NEVER limp with big pairs, then you shouldn't be interested in this thread so don't reply at all. If you do limp once in a while, then once in a while you'll find yourself in a position where you *thought* there would be a raise behind you, but there wasn't, and then maybe you do get interested in this thread.

It's funny how some people seem to never make mistakes and know everything, yet have a significantly lower ROI than other people that willingly admit their mistakes. I'm not specifically referring to anyone in particular here, but I'm always amused (and sometimes disgusted) by that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mostly agree with this, but I also don't understand the people who think the hand isn't worth discussing because you wouldn't be in this situation if you weren't stupid enough to limp a big pair. I mean the situation on the turn is still interesting even if you may have made a huge error preflop.

[HatesLosing]

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Well, if you NEVER limp with big pairs, then you shouldn't be interested in this thread so don't reply at all. If you do limp once in a while, then once in a while you'll find yourself in a position where you *thought* there would be a raise behind you, but there wasn't, and then maybe you do get interested in this thread.

It's funny how some people seem to never make mistakes and know everything, yet have a significantly lower ROI than other people that willingly admit their mistakes. I'm not specifically referring to anyone in particular here, but I'm always amused (and sometimes disgusted) by that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mostly agree with this, but I also don't understand the people who think the hand isn't worth discussing because you wouldn't be in this situation if you weren't stupid enough to limp a big pair. I mean the situation on the turn is still interesting even if you may have made a huge error preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I enjoyed going through all of the HoH hands and analyzing them throughout that series, and there are PLENTY of times that Harrington say stuff like "You actually call for $300..." (even though he prefers a fold or raise), because you are analyzing actual hands where errors were made. Part of the idea is that even the best pros make mistakes now and then, so YOU will too, but to play your best, you should still realize when you made a mistake and then do your best to play optimal from that point on.

[betgo]

First of all, there is nothing wrong with the limp as such. I am not sure if it is the right play for Baltostar, since it makes things tricky postflop if you don't get raised, and there are also problems where an LRR may turn your hand face up, but if people just fold if they miss their set, you can make the same move without a big pair. There are also problems with open raising big hands in early position.

Obviously, I am a limper, and don't think it is necessary to flame people for not always raising in this spot.

When you play the hand 5-handed in a limped pot, there is a good chance someone caught something.

I am not sure I like the small bet on the turn. How would people play that?

When you get raised, villain could have 2-pair, a set, a draw, or top pair. I think this is a close decision.

I really think people are going overboard with the Baltostar abuse here. This is an interesting hand, regardless if Baltostar misplayed it. Also, the preflop and initial turn bets may be errors, but they are not huge errors.

I really think this is a reasonable HSMTT hand, and it is OK to have bad players post hands here. Baltostar has annoyed people with his strategy posts, but I don't see anything wrong with this post.

I also think that Baltostar is not the one who comes out looking like a jerk in this thread.

[drzen]

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The psychology of this thread is more interesting than the hand. Balto posts a hand that he had to have known would engender some hostility, given how people feel about his other posts. Then he gets the hostility in spades. If anybody read this thread in isolation, they would think that you guys are a bunch of [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never read anything from baltostar or most of the others here, and that's exactly what I'm thinking.

baltostar is now on my must-read list. (He may be wrong. I dunno, not good enough to tell. But damn there's some thinking material in his posts.)

edit: and some of that thinking material undoubtedly comes from others trying to show he's wrong, so long live provocateurs.

[PrayingMantis]

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The psychology of this thread is more interesting than the hand. Balto posts a hand that he had to have known would engender some hostility, given how people feel about his other posts. Then he gets the hostility in spades. If anybody read this thread in isolation, they would think that you guys are a bunch of [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never read anything from baltostar or most of the others here, and that's exactly what I'm thinking.

baltostar is now on my must-read list. (He may be wrong. I dunno, not good enough to tell. . But damn there's some thinking material in his posts.)



[/ QUOTE ]

That's the problem with blatostar's posts. He is wrong, and most of his reasoning is really off and backward. Players who are not good might be impressed with his "deep analysis", which is dangerous and bad for them obviously. I agree however that any discussion is good, and him being a provocateur sometimes helps in creating interesting discussions.

As to the hand - it's the 3rd time that balto posts a hand in which he open limps utg (with 99, QJs if I remember correctly, and now KK). In short - most of the hands he posts are utg limps at full table. This is the worst of them. He doesn't mention any indication for this table being particularly loose-aggressive PF, or willing to stack-off with ridiculous hands post-flop (on the contrary - he mentions the over-tightness of this tournament in its early stages). His reasons for limping (8% mix-up or whatever) are over the top irrelevant here, and borderline joke. I won't get into other parts of his thinking, others have done that.

He is obviously a provocateur who loves to listen to himself, judging from the hands he posts and his theoretic posts. I am also 100% certain that he is a weak poker player. This is all fine and great, he has any right to post, I only feel it is important to warn "not good enough" players about his material, and make them be much more critical about it.

(BTW sometimes people naturally feel sympathy for the "underdog", the "deep thinking" poster who is constantly being "attacked". But in this case we are talking about a poster who is being "attacked" for some very good reasons (being simply flat out wrong, time and again), and he obviously enjoys it too.)

[HatesLosing]

The rule with AA is that "if you limp with aces, you never go broke with aces". Obviously there are exceptions, but that's the rule (flop a set and go broke, have a read on some jackass but he gets lucky, etc).

Why should it be any different with KK?

[0evg0]

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The rule with AA is that "if you limp with aces, you never go broke with aces". Obviously there are exceptions, but that's the rule (flop a set and go broke, have a read on some jackass but he gets lucky, etc).

Why should it be any different with KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

because it's a stupid fkin rule re: a stupid fkin play

[eBo]

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The rule with AA is that "if you limp with aces, you never go broke with aces". Obviously there are exceptions, but that's the rule (flop a set and go broke, have a read on some jackass but he gets lucky, etc).

Why should it be any different with KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

because it's a stupid fkin rule re: a stupid fkin play

[/ QUOTE ]

Can we please ban 0evg0 before we ban Baltostar? I've always found your posts to be unnecessarily condescending and rude. You have no significant results to back up your advice, and you offer very little to other posters. You put very little effort and thinking into your 9000 empty posts.

Balty, on the other hand, is focusing on the game rather than belittling others. Even if his play is flawed, I respect his willingness to learn and I'm sure he can become a better player if we were less critical of his errors. He also makes us better players by offering us his thought process. Poker isn't about how we play. It's about how others play, and how we adjust accordingly.

As to the hand, I always raise KK 100% in EP w/100BB. And I always fold the turn. Exploit me.