quick poll, if you would be so kind.

[blankoblanco]

well i also think we have a hand that is either going to win us a medium sized pot when we do hit, or lose us a large one. exceptions, but by and large i think it's true. sure, if he's 3betting 10% or more of his hands, we'd play it, but the entire point is we have no idea how tight he's 3betting us

as i suggested, it's not as though i think folding is definitively better, but i think it's lame to suggest a "good" player should always call here. i wouldn't be surprised if it's really marginal and i also wouldn't be surprised if folding generally has a better expectation, even from a really "good" player

i simply don't think the odds i'm being laid are good enough to make me want to play 3bet pots out of position with AQ against a player when i have no idea where they're at or how they play. it strips away many aspects of reading, which i think leads to emphasizing the positional advantage even more

[The Velour Fog]

[ QUOTE ]
Im kinda shocked that many people just fold. I normally call and play a 3bet pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[XCEO]

The people who say call, how do you play a:

a) low ragged flop
b) Q high flop (Q72r for example)
c) A high flop (AK5r for example)

This isn't really about pf imo, but more on what you do postflop. C/f unimproved? Do you make moves against unknowns?

etc etc etc.

Just saying, I call/fold pf isn't useful
Learn me something about postflop poker pls [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[BobboFitos]

a. need more info, such as what are those low rags
b. probably check call
c. people tend to shut down when check called on ace high, this may be giving alot of info, but a c/c on AKx is super strong. the time to pounce is on the flop, i probably check shove, any ace if they bet is calling, and if they dont have that, they have 2-4 outs and very little intention of firing again (even with an ace they could pot control).

so basically, board 1 depends, board 2 is basically bluff inducing pretend you have 88, and board 3 is check shove in their face.

[XCEO]

Let's assume the low ragged flop is something like 972r

Because you only improve your hand about 1/3 of the time and it isn't very likely that you will win a huge pot against his range, you do need to steal some pots when you miss, am I right? Just playing hit or miss with AQ OOP in a 3-bet pot seems very bad, so when do you steal these pots and furthermore, with what frequency?

[tagtastic]

There's no real way to answer this question. All options are valid, 100% depends on your image and your opponent's previous actions.

22/17 doesn't tell you much about his 3betting range. There are 22/17's who won't 3bet in this spot without AQs+, JJ+ and there are 22/17's who will 3bet you with just about anything here on a fairly regular basis.

If he's truly an "unknown 22/17" (which is tough to imagine since most TAG regulars you would have played with in the past), do anything but fold, try to get an idea what he's holding (via showdown or a good read) and make a note.

[jlocdog]

US,

Bobbo is saying that if the mofo is 3bettin the top 5% of his range then he will call with X and so on..... Sometimes you look stupid when you have a far inferior hand because of these frequencies...

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
US,

Bobbo is saying that if the mofo is 3bettin the top 5% of his range then he will call with X and so on..... Sometimes you look stupid when you have a far inferior hand because these frequencies...

[/ QUOTE ]
jlo is spot on

[Unknown Soldier]

oh ok, yeah i get it.

[Janis N.]

[ QUOTE ]
why is giving up bleeding money? Even if you dont insert any fanciness (which I do) you're hardly losing by check folding real bad flops. just chalking the pot to the aggressor who happens to have position, and although preflop you had a good hand, postflop it's also not such a good hand. When you go 0-3 in those situations, you tend to not win the pot, and thats ok with me. It's how you do in 1-2 and 2-1 scenarios that count.

[/ QUOTE ]Can you provide some examples of real bad flops? Can low flops be bad? And good flops (that you still have whiffed), do you donk, crai or float OOP - because imho all can be exploited.

[ QUOTE ]
well, due to 3bet dichotomy we'll tend to win that medium sized pot quite frequently, and we'll soemtimes win a stack too.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't see why. We don't have initiative, we don't have position. We'll lose more than our share of these medium sized pots, and we win a stack for sure only if we outkick him. We're in a reverse implied odds situation here IMHO.