Villain calls out of turn.

bucktotal · #1 03-14-2007, 12:20 AM

I am at the Borgata and its early sunday morning, 6am. My 1/2 NL table is full and there is a lot of action. a few good players and some drunken friends.

One guy sits down in the 8 seat with $200, looks to his bud in seat 1 and says, "i'm gonna bust you" and drunkenly laughs. about 2 hands later, he gets it all in on the turn with a gut shot/overcard or something and hits the 7 outer FTW. dude now has $400 and is having fun.

About 30 min later things slow down a bit and i look down at 44 UTG in seat 3. I raise to $8 with $300 behind and seat 8 calls on the button, and BB calls.

Flop: 4 5 K rainbow.

BB checks, I bet $15, button calls, BB folds.

Now, heres where it gets interesting.

Turn: 2

I look at villain, who is sitting there, looking totally drunk. just looking at me. one eye closed maybe. I am thinking about how much to bet and pick up some chips. I play with some chips and have about $35 in my hand. I am just holding the chips, behind my cards, never having made any indication of a bet yet.

and villain sits up and says "I call".

I looked at the dealer and said, "I didnt bet yet".
Dealer: "I know, what do you want to do"
Me: "Is he comitted to calling any bet i make?"
Dealer: "Yes"

I have $300 behind, villain has me covered and there is $50 pot.

is this a simple decision.... AI?

appreciate your thoughts on the issue.

buck.

elitegimp · #2 03-14-2007, 01:20 AM

Ask him how much he thought he was calling, and then bet the rest on the river? It's not like this is the end of the action for the hand...

rchandra · #3 03-14-2007, 02:07 AM

One reason not to allin .. what's the chances that the guy gets mad at your "angle"? If he gets mad he may just fold and good luck getting chips out of him. At best (judging from posts here) he'll get a warning or a boot. I'd just bet the most you think he'd be willing to call.

bav · #4 03-14-2007, 05:02 AM

Villain calls the floor and hopefully gets the insane statement from the dealer overruled. Villain is not committed to call any size bet you choose to make. Action out of turn is binding if the action doesn't change by the time it gets to that player. Well--the action is currently 0. Soon as you bet villain is welcome to call or fold.

bucktotal · #5 03-14-2007, 09:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain calls the floor and hopefully gets the insane statement from the dealer overruled. Villain is not committed to call any size bet you choose to make. Action out of turn is binding if the action doesn't change by the time it gets to that player. Well--the action is currently 0. Soon as you bet villain is welcome to call or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is interesting.

villain did not call the floor over and a the dealer told him he had to call whatever i bet. when the dealer called the floor, this decision was not overruled. (mistake?)

i did not consider asking him what amount he would like to call, and then bet that amount. that option did not crosss my mind.

my first instinct was to bet the amount i was planning on betting and go from there. However, i did want to bet the max i knew he would call, which now turned out to be whatever i was going to bet.

Are you suggesting that the dealer/floor made the incorrect decision and his call was not binding?

bucktotal · #6 03-14-2007, 09:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
One reason not to allin .. what's the chances that the guy gets mad at your "angle"? If he gets mad he may just fold and good luck getting chips out of him. At best (judging from posts here) he'll get a warning or a boot. I'd just bet the most you think he'd be willing to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

my point was, he was told he had to call any bet. it felt weird being able to control fate like this and i wasnt sure what the correct (ethical) play was. In the back of my mind was a little 2+2 birdie yelling "maximize EV"... but if i wasnt going AI, how much should i bet.

A reasonable option seemed to be:

A) bet pot
B) go from there.

my quesion is... is it unethical to go AI?

AngusThermopyle · #7 03-14-2007, 09:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]

villain did not call the floor over and a the dealer told him he had to call whatever i bet. when the dealer called the floor, this decision was not overruled. (mistake?)

.....

Are you suggesting that the dealer/floor made the incorrect decision and his call was not binding?

[/ QUOTE ]

In every card room that I have played in, calling 'out of turn' is not binding. The rules may be different where you were playing.

The question is did the dealer relay the action exactly as you described it.
You did not announce 'bet'.
You did not make any move to 'bet'.

You say the dealer did call the floor. When? After your bet? Did the other guy refuse to put the chips in and the floor was called?

johnc · #8 03-14-2007, 10:24 AM

Unfortunately, I'd probably do the ehtical (and not maximum +EV) thing and bet the amount I felt the drunk would have been willing to call. You would be for sure going against one of the important rules of poker and that is to use the information available to you to make the most +EV descision possible. And for certain we all like loose, donating types to be at our tables, drunks included but I believe this is one instance where I would pass up the opportunity to extract more.

bucktotal · #9 03-14-2007, 10:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In every card room that I have played in, calling 'out of turn' is not binding. The rules may be different where you were playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

it seems, at the borgata 1/2 games, which are so loose and filled with people making technical mistakes (while being obnoxiously drunk), that many technical rules are strictly inforced. i have not really played much live to know whether that is standard though.

[ QUOTE ]
The question is did the dealer relay the action exactly as you described it.
You did not announce 'bet'.
You did not make any move to 'bet'.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, there was a bit of confusion, understandably, so the dealer called the floor. all information was relayed accurately and many at the table agreed with the story.

[ QUOTE ]
You say the dealer did call the floor. When? After your bet? Did the other guy refuse to put the chips in and the floor was called?

[/ QUOTE ]

the floor was called after the dealer made the ruling and questions arose. i had not yet decided what to do. but i did want to know what my options were.

i wont say what happened just yet... because i'd just like to know what the technical ruling should have been. that is, was his bet really binding? or was this a local enforcement?

bucktotal · #10 03-14-2007, 10:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, I'd probably do the ehtical (and not maximum +EV) thing and bet the amount I felt the drunk would have been willing to call. You would be for sure going against one of the important rules of poker and that is to use the information available to you to make the most +EV descision possible. And for certain we all like loose, donating types to be at our tables, drunks included but I believe this is one instance where I would pass up the opportunity to extract more.

[/ QUOTE ]

this post is very much 'on the fence' and is similar to what i was thinking.

i was having difficulty coming up with a bet that i felt was "fair", because really, what is fair. there were no angles being shot, just rules being broken. However, EV was on the line and the outcome is important to my overall success... i would think.