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  #61  
Old 11-28-2007, 05:56 PM
Zygote Zygote is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

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this is as stupid as placing sanctions on iran and holding the entire iranian nation responsible for the crimes of a few.

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But with Iran we aren't talking about the actions of a few isolated citizens even, but those of the *government*. And it's *their* government so if the Iranians don't want the consequences that come from the actions of *their* government then they should do something about. And the fact that they would put their lives in jeopardy to do so isn't *our* problem.

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lets think a little deeper than these simple labels. this our world so we must be responsible for the crimes of our world and should implode ourselves as punishment?

iran has a very young and pro western population. the government and their supporters are more limited by the day and the other side will do something about if we stop getting in the way and helping the government gain support by not recognizing our allies and making false and generalized groupings and sentences.

iran would never have adopted the mullahs and allowed them to maintain their power if we weren't messing around.
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  #62  
Old 11-28-2007, 06:01 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

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iran has a very young and pro western population. the government and their supporters are more limited by the day and the other side will do something about if we stop getting in the way and helping the government gain support by not recognizing our allies and making false and generalized groupings and sentences.

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Yeah if we just stop defending ourselves and demanding Iran doesn't perpetrate or fund terrorist actions or attacks on other nations, then those mythical "moderate pro-western" types will bring about a change in their government. Sorry but I'm not accepting your offer to buy the mid-east version of the Brooklyn Bridge.
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  #63  
Old 11-28-2007, 06:17 PM
iron81 iron81 is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

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if we just stop defending ourselves and demanding Iran doesn't perpetrate or fund terrorist actions or attacks on other nations, then those mythical "moderate pro-western" types will bring about a change in their government.

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They were making progress toward this until Iran joined the Axis of Evil with their moderate democratically elected president.
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  #64  
Old 11-28-2007, 06:23 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

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They were making progress toward this until Iran joined the Axis of Evil with their moderate democratically elected president.

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"moderate"? Hahahaha. Nice way of skewing the standard. On a scale of 1 to 10, "8" is a moderate because it's further away from the extreme, even though it is further yet from the true middle. This isn't a bell curve in one of your college classes, it's an absolute scale.

When any extremist organization/country puts one of its *relatively* "moderate" (i.e. less extreme but still extreme) members out front as its mouthpiece, while the real power is still wielded by the most extreme, that isn't any true indication of change.

It's actions and substance that matter and not rhetoric and appearances.
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  #65  
Old 11-28-2007, 06:45 PM
adios adios is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

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if we just stop defending ourselves and demanding Iran doesn't perpetrate or fund terrorist actions or attacks on other nations, then those mythical "moderate pro-western" types will bring about a change in their government.

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They were making progress toward this until Iran joined the Axis of Evil with their [sarcasm]moderate democratically elected president[/sarcasm].

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You forgot the sarcasm tags right??
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  #66  
Old 11-28-2007, 07:19 PM
Goater Goater is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

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yes i've seen all of this. jewish children are subject to a lot of this non sense too. if israel gave back the territories jewish terrorist could become a problem, for example, because many are as fanatically indoctrinated. most of jewish fanatics do their bidding through the military though while the other side does this through less formal organizations. if they lost military support i think youd see some serious jewish resistance groups.

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This is the sort of rubbish I hear all the time. How do you know this exactly? Please provide evidence/links to the same sort of stuff Palestinian children are fed on a daily basis. The media, human rights organisations, the UN all constantly reinforce this equivalence idea in every aspect of the conflict. "Cycle of violence", "extremists on both sides", etc... people blindly accept it as gospel.

The brainwashing of children and the glorification of brutality, death and murder is possibly the biggest problem of all. Hamas uses a mickey mouse character telling children that Jews are the sons of pigs and apes and telling them that the highest calling is to die attacking them. The word "Israel" does not appear on any Palestinian maps. They are taught that Jews are evil and the cause of every upheaval in the world including, explicitly "the french revolution and the communist revolution". They name streets and football teams after suicide bombers. They "report" that Israel organises orgies in muslim holy places, that the IDF drops poisoned sweets for Palestinian children, that Israel infected 300 Palestinian children with HIV, that the IDF x-rayed a Palestinian woman to death at a checkpoint, that Shamir (ex-Israeli Prime Minister) had the skull of a Palestinian fetus that was cut out of a Palestinian woman on his desk as an ashtray! Need I go on? This is yet another example of how the Palestian people are victims themselves - the world refuses to believe this and what Israel faces.

The Israeli education system, like the majority of the media, is left wing. Yuli Tamir, the education minister in the Israeli government, recently approved a textbook for Israeli arab children that referred to the establishment of the State of Israel as the "nakba" (the catastrophe), the arabic term that is used to refer to the establishment of the state. Shulamit Aloni, an ex education minister (and far left activist) has stated that she believes Israel practices apartheid against the Palestinians. Israeli children receive an Israeli left wing education which is very sympathetic to the palestinian cause.

If you want links to the above I will be happy to find them for you tomorrow. Please provide links to what you believe is taught to Israeli children or stop spouting this sort of rubbish.
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  #67  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:08 PM
SNOWBALL SNOWBALL is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

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Lebanon has a choice. They can either put *their* house in order, or Israel will do so.

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would it be ok for cambodia to poison our water supply because we won't extradite kissinger?
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  #68  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:19 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

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Lebanon has a choice. They can either put *their* house in order, or Israel will do so.

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would it be ok for cambodia to poison our water supply because we won't extradite kissinger?

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Not the issue. The issue is recent (ongoing in the short term if not taking place at this very moment) attacks. Do you really get gullible people to fall for that kind of misdirection IRL?
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  #69  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:26 PM
Zygote Zygote is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

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If you want links to the above I will be happy to find them for you tomorrow. Please provide links to what you believe is taught to Israeli children or stop spouting this sort of rubbish.

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i dont need to look for links but maybe will tomorrow when i got time. I can tell you, as a jew, i grew up being taught to hate arabs. When felix children ask him what the arabs are he's going to say they are all murderous venoms who should be treated like dogs. I have tons of jewish friends who constantly joke the only thing better than one dead arab is millions of dead arabs. where do you think that comes from?

why do you think Rabin was assassinated just for being sympathetic the Palestinian cause? did you see how jews reacted when they gave back some of gaza too? like i said, many of hte jews did their bidding through the likud to impose their crazy religious beliefs this is just seemingly more legitimized.

three of my cousins serve in the Israeli military and all have very biased views on the issue and have a feeling that we just must be horrible to Arabs. the hatred very much exists on the Jewish side.

ive got more to say but gotta get some stuff done before the youtube debate. hopefully we can redress this tomorrow.
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  #70  
Old 11-28-2007, 09:55 PM
Goater Goater is offline
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Default Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs

no offense, but you seem to to have a very limited and naive view of the issues.


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I can tell you, as a jew, i grew up being taught to hate arabs.

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Do you mind me asking where you grew up and who "taught" you to hate arabs? Were you told blatant lies, that all arabs are bad, that you should kill them? Im genuinely curious. There is a big difference between prejudice and what is being taught to Palestinian children. You cant blame Israelis for not liking arabs, they have been attacked and murdered by them for many years, but there is a huge difference in wanting to murder every last one. Palestinians are educated to believe - literally - that Jews are animals and intrinsically evil AND at the same time, schooled in violence and brutality. It is this dual approach that makes murder inevitable and its one big difference as to why other people with prejudices do not end up blowing themselves up in pizza shops amongst the group they dont like. Whilst distasteful, jokes between friends do not lead to the sorts of things the Palestinians have been doing.


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where do you think that comes from?

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I have no idea. This is not my experience (and not the experience of my family and friends in Israel). Your answers to my questions above should help me understand.


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why do you think Rabin was assassinated just for being sympathetic the Palestinian cause?

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You are grossly over simplifying this. He was murdered by a lunatic who represented a tiny percentage of the population. Rabin was also not in any way "sympathetic" to the Palestinian cause. He basically believed that it was for the security of Israel to be at peace with the Palestinians - he didnt care at all about the Palestinians. Rabin was supported by a majority of the population and the vast majority of those that opposed him would never have considered anything but democratic means to stop his plans. The number of people who would have supported his assasination was miniscule but, unfortunately, to be expected - there are insane people in every country. We are not talking of a few families teaching their children to murder - we are talking about official (goverment controlled) media and religius figures.


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did you see how jews reacted when they gave back some of gaza too?

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Can you really be that flippant about the withdrawal from Gaza!? Do you really not understand how excruciatingly painful and divisive this was for the country? Families had been encouraged to live there by Labour and Likud governments since 1967. They believed they were doing their duty (some religious, some national, some both) to settle the land. Grandparents, parents and children were buried on that land where they had lived and worked for 40 years. Even for supporters of the withdrawal in Israel, it was an incredibly difficult event. How would you react exactly?


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like i said, many of hte jews did their bidding through the likud to impose their crazy religious beliefs this is just seemingly more legitimized.

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"bidding"? You speak like supporters of the likud party are mysterious evil masterminds! You sound exactly like someone who has uncritically listened to the propaganda. Also, religious beliefs are only a part of it - have you never heard of secular zionists - have you ever been to Israel?


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three of my cousins serve in the Israeli military and all have very biased views on the issue and have a feeling that we just must be horrible to Arabs. the hatred very much exists on the Jewish side.

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I never said that hatred dosnt exist on the Israeli side - of course it does. But your idea that Israel is run by religious madmen who see the murder of arabs as a righteous obligation is simply ignorant. Your 3 cousins are irrelevant - we are talking about a nation. You say that they believe that they should be "horrible" to arabs. Did they advocate the murder of innocent arabs? Have they done, seen or been encouraged to do this? Or do they just mean that the measures that Israel must take to defend its civilians are unpleasant but necessary, in their opinion?

They are also Israeli, therefore you cant really use the word "biased" to describe their views. They are not observers from the outside. Im sure that they dont like arabs. Most people wouldnt if they lived through the intifada when over a thousand civilians were murdered inside Israel, week by week and they had to join the army for 3 years at the age of 18 instead of going to clubs, meeting girls and travelling the world.

I apologise if my tone is harsh, but by the things you write, it seems that you really have a very superficial and naive view of the situation.
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