LO8 - 2/4 - Is this a check call down all the way

[WC3V]

Just a concept check - does anyone raise anywhere in this hand and is the river an easy call given missed FD.

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Omaha Hi/Lo Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, Hero calls, BB (poster) checks.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6SB, 6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls, 2 folds.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7.5BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 10.5BB

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a concept check - does anyone raise anywhere in this hand and is the river an easy call given missed FD.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi WC3V - I would either directly bet the flop or check-raise a late position aggressive opponent who bet. Which would more or less depend mostly on my opponents. But I would not check call.

Then on the turn I would bet again, and call a raise (rather than re-raising).

Then on the river I would probably check/call.

In my humble opinion, you played the hand too passively on the second betting round. Once you do that, it's hard to correct.

Buzz

[WC3V]

Thanks heaps for the reply Buzz.

So you suggest leading the turn even with the low down where we can only win half?

My plan for these hands is to generally c/c flop and lead non low or non flush card turns. If flush gets there on turn i usually muck 3 handed.

Do you think this line in general is too passive?

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
So you suggest leading the turn even with the low down where we can only win half?

[/ QUOTE ]I don't want to answer.

I think you should make your move on the second betting round, rather than waiting for the third betting round. And then you probably bet again on the third betting round.

You want to learn to pick up reads on the second betting round, and you can read your opponents better if they are reacting to you. Moreover, they're more likely to make mistakes if you are the one who bets.

You hurt yourself by not playing more aggressively on the flop, by not immediately trying to reduce the field. You can't tell if someone betting behind you has a higher set than you or is betting a draw (semi-bluffing). It's true that someone can be coy and out-play you, and it's true that someone can over-bet their hand and out-play you. But you give yourself a much better chance if you are the one who does the betting.

Moreover, during the second betting round, you don't know that the turn will be a favorable low card for someone. If it isn't, you're way ahead by betting on the second betting round.

You really want to get rid of top two pairs and various other hands that might get out of your way.

So when you don't bet the flop, I think you've already misplayed the hand. If you don't bet the flop it's very hard to get a read on your opponents.

You're asking what to do after you're already screwed up the play of the hand. I haven't thought that through, and I probably never will.

[ QUOTE ]
My plan for these hands is to generally c/c flop and lead non low or non flush card turns. If flush gets there on turn i usually muck 3 handed.

Do you think this line in general is too passive?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. I think you're playing it too safe for a flopped set, particularly on the flop. In case your hand does not improve to a full house, you substantially promote your unimproved set by knocking out opponents who might pick up straight or flush draws on the turn. Most of the time, your flopped set will not improve.

When the board does pair, you don't want somebody with two pairs still in the hand. When a high card appears on the turn or river, you don't want somebody who has hung around cheaply with an over-pair to pick up a higher set.

From your perspective, after the flop, it's roughly 2 to 1 that you'll miss improving to a full house or better by the river. And when you don't it's very nice if your unimproved set wins.

However, that written, you always have to play your opponents. I don't know your opponents.

Buzz

[brian64]

Because you have a pair in your hand, you only have 6 outs to improve (2,JJJ,KK) rather than the usual 10, and you have no low draw. If someone has the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I don't think you have enough equity to call on the flop. And even if no one has the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], there are loads of scare cards which make it hard for you to know whether to continue. ABC on the flop?