Professional No-Limit Hold 'em Volume 1 Review Thread

[Matt Flynn]

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I've been playing poker for 3 weeks but only in play money. Now, I'd like to play in real money. I have not read a poker book yet and I just know the rules of Holdem. I know nothing about odds, probabilities, strategies, etc... so do you think that "Professional No-Limit Hold 'em Volume 1" is a good first book ?

Does it introduce the concepts mentioned above ? Do you think that is a good book for someone who wants to play poker more seriously ?

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Good second book. Would read Getting Started in Hold 'em first, then PNL if your goal is to play no-limit cash games.

[Matt Flynn]

tighty,

If they won't pay you off at all, bluff more. If they're hyperaggressive, check more.

Why would you routinely bet the pot other than when multitabling so much that you cannot size bets fast enough?

If they can figure out a partly-randomized preflop raising strategy that uses varying raise sizes, just use a fixed preflop raise size. But pick one that works decently for the hands you'll be playing. Also, if they are very aggro and excellent hand readers, they win. However, don't overestimate the mad skillz of your opponents. There is a reason only a couple handfuls of players kill those games.

Matt

[feelixthegreek]

My point was that I played the previous streets in such a way that my final decision was much easier than it could have otherwise been. And no, I don't make a habit out of laying down top set. I just chose that hand because it illustrated the difference in how I approached the hand PF vs. how I might have normally played it.

[tightymcfish]

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tighty,

If they won't pay you off at all, bluff more. If they're hyperaggressive, check more.

Why would you routinely bet the pot other than when multitabling so much that you cannot size bets fast enough?

If they can figure out a partly-randomized preflop raising strategy that uses varying raise sizes, just use a fixed preflop raise size. But pick one that works decently for the hands you'll be playing. Also, if they are very aggro and excellent hand readers, they win. However, don't overestimate the mad skillz of your opponents. There is a reason only a couple handfuls of players kill those games.

Matt

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Matt in no way am I bashing your book. I think the REM part is very good, so is the fundamentals part for an upcoming player to start thinking these topics (i.e hand ranges, equity, etc).

My only gripe with the book is that it seems you are trying to provide a do it all formula so that players don't take it upon themselves to get better postflop. Most of the examples of SPR are basically I raise x amount so I can pot,pot,pot get it all in. I just feel that this kind of thinking basically makes a player a bot.(I know you mention not to be one but trust me most people who will read your book just want a let me get good fast at poker formula as if there is one). Plus most good players online will catch on to this extremely fast with the tools available to them nowadays (pokertracker, ace hud, etc)

Also, I have played both online and live and I feel your book is mostly geared towards live play as the players and examples you mention you will find mostly in the live arena
Online players for the most part just don't make some of the moves you mention anymore. (i.e. open limp)

I was thinking about your book more after you posted and I think a beggining player can succesfully beat most live games with your book but will get crushed online as the players have just gotten way better through the years.

Again in no way do i mean to disrespect any of the authors as I do feel they did a very good job with the first part of the book.

[tightymcfish]

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I just finished reading the book. I think this book gives a pretty decent recipe for playing soft live games (e.g. bet an amount preflop so that the flop is easier to play,etc). The book's advice imho is terrible for the tough online games. I already read through this and have thought of at least 3 ways you can find out within a couple thousand hands who is trying to implement this and what to do to exploit it (no i won't say how because it is very easy to do if you read the book.)

The book complete ignores the fact that in the tough online games and I am not talking 1/2 or 2/4, the games are so aggro and the players are such good hand readers that people just won't put their stack in against a player who all he does is smash the pot bottom because his SPR told him to commit to his to pair or overpair hand.

I think the author assumes you are playing against a bunch of donkeys. Because a good player will adjust quickly agains this strategy and just not pay you off enough. No matter what SPR you achieve.

I don't find the book horrible but I think it gives a fake sense of security to those who want a quick cookbook recipe to beat poker.

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Hi tightymcfish,

Thanks for the comments. Couple things....

First off, the book isn't designed to teach players to beat tough aggro high-limit shorthanded online NL games. Tough games are "tough" for a reason, and certainly one needs experience and excellent hand reading skills that are hard to teach in any sort of "cookbook" fashion.

Secondly, I still think most of the concepts in the book are pertinent to any NL game, and could be easily adjusted to even a tough game. No doubt - it would not be as simple as saying "okay I'll just do this everytime and commit everytime." But thinking about Range of hands, Equity, and Maximizing is apt in almost any situation, and is a helpful tool to analyze how to go about reading hands and making the most +EV plays. Thinking about commitment and the idea of the relationship between pot size and remaining stack sizes is extremely helpful - even against tough players.

In fact, one thing you said that I particularly disagree with is this:

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a good player will adjust quickly agains this strategy and just not pay you off enough. No matter what SPR you achieve.

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Certain players at even the high levels have realized that there indeed is a way to play ABC poker without having to be expert hand readers - THEY BUY IN SHORT. Do you think it's a coincidence that so many good high-stakes players absolutely abhor good short-stack players?

The fact is this: many of the excellent, "toughest" players with their laser sharp hand reading skills are completely neutralized by good short-buy players. Despite their impeccable postflop maneuvering, many of these awesome players are often simply playing too loose with not enough preflop equity against a tight range, and have no implied odds to make hand reading skills relevant on the turn or river (because there is no turn or river). And, in fact, they DO end up "paying them off". The shorty is essentially choosing his stack size (as opposed to raise size) to create low SPR's and commit with strong hands.

Again, I totally see where you're coming from, and even appreciate the constructive criticism. I just disagree with the way you're melding concept and practice.

Thanks,

Sunny

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Sunny thanks for taking the time to respond to my comments on the book. Let me first say that I completely agree with you that the first part of the book is very good and has valuable information like REM.

I also agree that shortstackers take the postflop element of the game away, but as we all shortstackers must be banned from poker. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

But most players don't shortstack. Poker is not about shortstacking and it never will. Poker will always be about postflop maneuvering.

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a good player will adjust quickly agains this strategy and just not pay you off enough. No matter what SPR you achieve.

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I wrote that quote without any shortstackers in mind because postflop just doesn't exist with these guys. But I still feel that quote is true. You will just not get people to pay you off with pot pot pot. There are many ways counteract this its not even funny (obviously I want to keep that to myself since I want to win money [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

Sorry for the long winded answer. But I guess we have to agree to disagree. In the end I do think your book sparked some thoughts in my head (good and bad) which I thank you for. I wish you and matt much success with the book.

[steamboatin]

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There are many ways counteract this its not even funny (obviously I want to keep that to myself since I want to win money )

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I find this incredibly interesting. what do you do to combat someone that is committed to going all in and is trying to get there as fast as he can? If he is betting you only have two options, raise or fold.

[Sunny Mehta]

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There are many ways counteract this its not even funny (obviously I want to keep that to myself since I want to win money )

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I find this incredibly interesting. what do you do to combat someone that is committed to going all in and is trying to get there as fast as he can? If he is betting you only have two options, raise or fold.

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yeah, the other thing is that - remember - we present the whole other side of how to play AGAINST the top pair hands (both by stealing, playing drawing hands, etc.)....I elaborated on this in the SSNL thread....the real problem, as people like tighty have mentioned or alluded to, is that people can sometimes read something and just take away the peripherals instead of the "point".....(omg Sunny and Matt said in this example that hero raised to 6bb with AA so that means they're saying we should always raise to 6bb with AA!!!!!!!!)....

but the thing is, I have confidence in both the clarity of the text as well as the intelligence of our audience....sure, a minority of people will misunderstand something due to other factors, but that's the way everything is....

and bottom line (IMO) - even though people sometimes want the cookbook quick fixes (and that's fine), the best primers and the best teachers are the ones that teach you to teach yourself.....

[GuyIncognito]

I noticed that suited aces are not included in the "target SPRs for starting hands" section in pp. 207-210, although they are discussed in the book.

Presumably they go in the "drawing/stealing hands" section, with desired SPR 13+, unless the villains are dumb enough to give action with second pair etc.

[Lottery Larry]

"we ran out of room. Sunny wrote that discussion long before volume 1 was submitted, but it wouldn't fit."


How do you run out of ROOM when making a book?

Are there conscious marketing or financial reason to say "This book can only be X pages long at this price and we can't go over this price"?

(I know that sounds obvious, but I'm a little curious about the logistics of creating a book and the decisions involved)

[Sam Spade]

A review is an opinion, and you expressed yours. I don't think you came across as disrespectful. Yes, the quality of online play has increased; however, I feel that the book has value at every level.

I do not mean to oversimplify the book with my next few statements. Volume 1 is amazing, and I am thinking about NL in a completely different way because of the the hard work of everyone involved with its publication.

NL is about stacking the opponent. You must build a pot to stack an opponent. You can build a pot by betting, raising, and checking (to induce a bluff/provide an opportunity to CR). If you make poor decisions you will get stacked. This book walks you through the thought process of how to stack your opponent and provides you with guidelines that make your postflop decisions less laborious. Simple yet elegant.

Just my $.02.