AP thread 87.1 - waiting on the statement ITT

[bpc009]

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BTW, I don't want people taking this as a demand of compensation for "mental anguish" or any BS like that.

The main reason for additional compensation, as I already stated, is the fact that the cheaters should not have been allowed to freeroll us in their attempt to steal our money.

For example, let's say I offered you a game (poker or otherwise) where I may or may not be cheating. The deal I offer you is that if you can conclusively prove I was cheating (and how I did it), I will refund any losses you have. Otherwise, I will keep anything I win. Would you take this deal? Obviously not. Therefore, there must be some sort of premium charged for CHEATING AND GETTING CAUGHT, otherwise the cheaters have nothing to lose by playing dishonestly.

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Jail?!?

[jman220]

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somebody please ban hackers again

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done.

[Dan Druff]

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BTW, I don't want people taking this as a demand of compensation for "mental anguish" or any BS like that.

The main reason for additional compensation, as I already stated, is the fact that the cheaters should not have been allowed to freeroll us in their attempt to steal our money.

For example, let's say I offered you a game (poker or otherwise) where I may or may not be cheating. The deal I offer you is that if you can conclusively prove I was cheating (and how I did it), I will refund any losses you have. Otherwise, I will keep anything I win. Would you take this deal? Obviously not. Therefore, there must be some sort of premium charged for CHEATING AND GETTING CAUGHT, otherwise the cheaters have nothing to lose by playing dishonestly.

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Jail?!?

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Jail would be nice, but we can't count on that.

Furthermore, they still will have financially freerolled us.

Any competent civil judge in the U.S. would award punitive damages to the players in a case like this.

[imabigdeal]

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somebody please ban hackers again

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done.

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ty sir. well i'm goin to bed, night all, looking forward to the statement and the 400 new replies i'll get to sift through tomorrow morning [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. keep up the good work everyone

[bigbb33]

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BTW, I don't want people taking this as a demand of compensation for "mental anguish" or any BS like that.

The main reason for additional compensation, as I already stated, is the fact that the cheaters should not have been allowed to freeroll us in their attempt to steal our money.

For example, let's say I offered you a game (poker or otherwise) where I may or may not be cheating. The deal I offer you is that if you can conclusively prove I was cheating (and how I did it), I will refund any losses you have. Otherwise, I will keep anything I win. Would you take this deal? Obviously not. Therefore, there must be some sort of premium charged for CHEATING AND GETTING CAUGHT, otherwise the cheaters have nothing to lose by playing dishonestly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jail?!?

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Jail would be nice, but we can't count on that.

Furthermore, they still will have financially freerolled us.

Any competent civil judge would ramble on about how the internet is made up of a series of tubes, and how an "IP location" is a lot like a fingerprint, except it's digital and is made up of electronics. Then he would ramble on about how poker sites and the "interweb" are untrustworthy and in his day nobody would trust anyone because they were all god damn communists.

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[fleece_me]

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Also when is Mark Seif going to post a public apology to me

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You are probably going to get all the apologies you can stand in the form of a lawsuit from the seemingly litigious prick especially after exposing PopCorn Gate '06.

[Matfrid]

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All they are saying is that 'superusers' are not a designed in feature. If true, this would imply the existence of a user, or other application to see others' hole cards was designed under the table with sole malicious intnet. I wouldn't be surprised.

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Indeed. I know it is pointless to speculate on how it was done, but as I have pointed out before, the denial of a superuser is deceiving. It is easy to just state that for instance the backend database has no superuser account, and that there is no superuser for the game client. But I am certain that those that worked hard on exposing this chose the term not for it's exact technical value, but rather because it makes most people understand what was going on: someone could access the hole cards.

Absolute state: " There is absolutely no legitimate purpose for any account nor any backoffice system to be able to view hole cards of a hand while it is in play.". This is of course true, but somewhere in the middle tier there is the logic that can decide which hand won a showdown, and there is data about the hole cards. The exploit could be done in one of many ways - interception/eavesdropping of the message queue with hole card information sent to game clients, direct lookup (maybe with special software running on a server) of hole card information wherever it is stored while waiting for a hand to finish and so on. There's many possibilites and virtually no way to make such exploits impossible. To just state that these exploits were not a desgin feature is only meant to deceive.

[goofyballer]

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Or lets say Baronzeus DID open raise, I fold to his open raise, however, because of Graycat playing the hand, and me being aware of BZ 3-betting him ultralight (because of graycat playing every hand), this hand cost me $800. PT shows me losing $800 to BZ from this pot, even though it's effectively Graycat who cost me the $800.

Do I get some form of reimbursement?

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So if you won the hand, would you be expected to give that money back to baronzeus, or AP, or something? To continue off what Dan said about "we can't allow the cheaters to freeroll us", this situation involves you freerolling AP.

Also, this may be a fun hypothetical discussion, but the chances of AP actually doing a really thorough analysis of every hand ever played by any cheating account to determine a fair amount to reimburse to all players involed in this manner (by examining what would have happened if the cheaters couldn't cheat) are probably about the same as the odds of playing six 6/49 lotteries and winning all of them.

[GSykes]

TLR

[NoLimitLeagues]

I wouldnt rule out Oscar133. The tourney that he won, scoring $37,500 was on October 6th, 2007 after their cheating was brought out in the open. If the owners of AP are still cheating, they would most likely be smart enough to make attempts to avoid being noticed, this time. They dont want to get caught again. Think of how easy it would be to win a tourney and not give yourself away doing it. For example, the A7 vs KK play, there are a few explanations as to why he would make that call and hope for a suckout, if he doesnt hit the suckout, then at least he has proven to everyone that hes not a "Super User" and he still has a ton of chips, more than enough to win it with his ability to see the cards. When studying the tournaments that took place after the cheaters were exposed, you will have to look very, very closely because they are going to be more careful and take measures to avoid detection. You may not be able to prove Oscar113 could see the hole cards after studying the hand histories, but there is a chance you will find something, hopefully you can track down all the hand histories.

Also, we need a lot of people to start digging thru all the big tourney winners of AP from as far back as we can go, If they were stealing chump change from charities in 2006, and stealing huge chunks from their most important customers in 2007 I would imagine they have been finding ways to steal for a long time. The "whistle blower" who released the excel doc. seemed to release it very quickly indicating that they may have been waiting to bust the owners for a long time.

Point is we need to scour the stats of every AP player that ever won big money on AP, including ring games. Players should go thru their PT DBs and list anyone who had a high win rate and see if any patterns emerge. My guess is AP has been using this exact tactic for over a year or maybe since the start and just recently someone, most likely Scott Tom got a little greedy and dumb and got caught. Also, we should be trying to think outside the box, and rack our brains for other ways they may have cheated. Maybe they figured out a way to rig the cards that would make them more money. Anyone with a statistics background should really study AP and confirm that their cards really are random, if that is possible. Im just saying we should assume that these scammers spent a lot of time thinking of ways to make more money whether or not it was ethical or legal and we should try to catch them.