The Well: Cowpig (summary 23/07/07)

bubaloo · #1 11-26-2007, 01:50 PM

The Well: Cowpig (summary 23/07/07)

I am in no condition to play poker today (hangover ftw), so...

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A stranger is being shown around a village that he has just become part of. He is shown a well and his guide says "On any day except tuesday, you can shout any question down that well and you'll be told the answer." The man seems pretty impressed, and so he shouts down: Why not on tuesday? and the voice from in the well shouts back: Because on tuesday, its your day in teh well.

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yeh?

 poker story? graph? 

First played poker when I was 16, my dad got into online poker and thus I did too. Read all the 2+2 books plus supersystem, and lost $200 of my hard-earned busboy money to Dikshit.

That summer I had started playing with my friends and stuff and was trying to save up enough money to buy a car, so I figured I'd have another go at online poker. I deposited $50, and ran it up to over 2k at one point. I eventually cashed out something like $700 and lost the rest playing $1/$2 on a $600 roll (I told myself 6 buy-ins was a reasonable bankroll, and the buyins on party at the time were 50bbs).

I started playing online again when my friend went to summer camp with HoldemPhil (one of the great all-time sit-donkists, also a force in the multitable donkament world). We played on a split bankroll and he had the worst tilt problems I've ever seen in my life. At one point our BR was about $800 and he lost a $50 HU, played a $50 4-player and lost 2nd round, then he played a $200 and lost, so he played a $500 and won. In celebration he played a $1k and won.

This became a habit for him and fighting, etc, made it clear playing on a split BR was retarded.

My first year of college I started playing online once again, and saw an ad for www.twoplustwo.com in the back of Harrington's new books. So I joined up and everyone said "get pokertracker." I did that, and ran something like 3ptbb at .25/.50 and a bit of .5/1 6-max on party, 2-3 tabling, which funded most of my College debauchery.

I later dropped out of college and became a total degen before getting my life back on track and going to a Community College and getting a job. I was working for less than $7/hr at a video store, and my thought process went something like "f this I'm gonna play poker for monies." That was in November, 2006.

I deposited $200 on PokerStars, played some .05/.10, then quickly moved up to .25/.50. I got pretty frustrated, though, because I had trouble beating .25/.50 as I was a big spewtard. Around this time DJ Sensei wrote his Artichoke Joe's TR which I thought was pretty awesome. I sent him a PM asking for advice, and he told me it sounded like I was a pretty huge spewtard (ldo), and that I should consider switching to full-ring for a while to get a grip on my bluffing.

So I did that starting in January, 2007 (which is when I say I started playing poker), and soon became a 12-tabling reg at .25/.50. I was a pretty decent winner there, and eventually bought myself a new laptop with my winnings which made me feel pretty good about myself. I also got good grades in school and stopped drinking so excessively (yaay). However, I still had tilt control issues.

I tried to move up to .5/1 in Feb, and ran bad at first. I was still not very confident about my game at the time, so I think running bad when I first moved up was really devastating psychologically. Feb ended up being a red month overall, which really upset me. In mid-march I was still downswinging, and made a kind of desperate post in the FRNLOL forum. Futuredoc PM'd me with his aim SN and started talking to me about poker and helping me with my game. He also convinced me to switch over to 6-max. Talking to someone regularly about strategy who was intelligent and a good player helped me get better at poker much faster.

One night when I was pretty drunk I was trying to get Shaundeeb to play me heads-up because I thought he was a pretty big donkey. I would have gotten torn up pretty badly, and luckily, Shaundeeb pussed out. Vanessa, however, tried to convince me to play her instead. I started talking to her on AIM, and when she realized my bankroll wasn't even a buy-in for her, she felt too bad to play me heads-up. However, I found out that she lived right by me, and that she had played in some of the same NYC games as my father.

Randomly, one night, I was partying at my friend's house and got hit by some serious insomnia. Everyone went to sleep, so I decided to play a rebuy tournament. I got to the final table somehow, and Vanessa logged on as I was there. So she started sweating me, and when it came down to the final three there was talk of a chop. She insisted that I not chop, because she said I was 30x better than the other two donks. I was uneasy but gave in. I took 1st place, ship it! That was in April, and I moved up, OBV. Result. : http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post9944003

Clearly, though, I was on the cusp of something great. I turned to professional coaching to aid me on my journey. I quickly started beating 1/2 until one day when I played on a 103 degree fever, dropped like a million buyins which started one of those awful downswing cycles (lose money, feel bad, play feeling bad, lose more money, feel worse, etc).

I cashed out a bunch of money in May at about the peak of my winnings, and with the subsequent downswing, my bankroll was at $1,300 on June 1st. However, F poker, I was READY TO ROCK!

June, 2007 : http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...ue#Post10968598

BWAHAHAHAHA ok seriously, though, that sucked. So in July my br was down to about 4k and I decided to play the Super Tuesday with Bakes splitting profits and take 2nd to boost my BR.

Now I've moved up to 5/10 and am crushing it pretty badly:

What is your normal 3b range from the blinds vs a likely steal?
I talked to someone about it and figured that just because my hand is ahead of his steal range does not mean I should 3bet, but maybe it does.
This hand sparked that discussion:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

MP ($400.25)
CO ($333.55)
Button ($394)
Hero ($396)
BB ($69.70)
UTG ($1547.10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Button raises to $14, Hero raises to $52, 1 fold, Button calls $38.

Flop: ($108) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $68, Button raises to $342, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $518 

I can resteal with basically anything playable (A3s, J7o, anything not COMPLETELY useless) if I think my opponent plays bad in reraised pots, if I think table conditions merit it, etc.
However, vs a decent villain and my/your image I would not cbet that flop.

 dude sick story.
But seriously get ur BR management under control for realz. 

Since this is the well and not BBV I'll let you guys in on a little secret: I never chased my losses up to 5knl.
I'll explain in a second.

OK here's what really happened there: I got to vegas right after the sickest losing day of my life. At that point, I had switched over to a nutso-aggro style (bye bye 22/18), and it was the first time that month that I really tilted during a session. Tilt + 29/25 = -EV.

Then, it just so happened that I made a joke about playing Stevesbets on my 14k roll (down from 21k), and Vanessa said "Oh is he sitting? Let me play him." So SHE actually lost the 10k, not me. These were no losses chased.

During her match vs Stevesbets, Grimstarr kept trying to sit in and steal the button. Then he would sit in and time down with the "Do you want to post?" message to interrupt her match. He's a total douche. Also, he has never sat in vs me heads up, even when I was just a 2/4 reg. Such a vag.

Anyway, this is what my June actually looked like:

As you can see, I switched over to a pretty crazy laggy style when I moved up to 2/4. The fact that it is more fun (and I therefore focus more when I play) and that it forces me to play 6 tables or less is +EV for me.

 do you think your that much better than the 5/10 regs or just running hot ? 

I'm definitely running pretty hot, and would guess that my winrate will even out to ~7.5ptbb or so.

I think I'm better than most regs, but not all of them. Straate on stars, for example, is a monster.

edit: Actually the toughest reg is 20 Buck Spin on stars. He just owns me all day.

edit edit: And 20 Buck Spin was playing 2/4 at the same time as me too, and has moved up to 5/10. The man is a force to be reckoned with.



Yes, gildwulf is a cranky, unreasonable geezer. My old account was Acidca.

 First, from your stats it seems your WTSD is pretty high (maybe not for your vpip/pfr) and your W$SD is below 50 but your crushing, im impressed sir.
Second, when you switched to a laggier style what new hands did you incorporate into your range at what positions? Also did you loosen up and then starting off losing and learned to hand read better, or were you a good enough hand reader all along to play this style and started off crushing and decided it seems like a good way to play. 

I never made the conscious decision to play a laggier style. I had always been 8+ tabling before I moved up to 2/4, and when I moved up, I switched to 4-tabling at first. I ended up playing a lot more hands preflop as a result. In hindsight, I should have been playing no more than 6-7 tables ever.

Also, when I first moved up to 2/4 I hired TWP to coach me a bit, and he gave me some advice that really helped me a ton. Two things he told me that had a profound effect on my ability to win were:

-If you think you definitely have the best hand on the river, value bet it, no matter how thin it seems.

-Nobody ever folds top pair to someone with a laggy image, ever. So don't try to bluff them out of the hand if they have top pair+, and if you can beat top pair, value bet for stacks.

Those are obviously not always applicable, but as general guidelines/principles, they helped me shape my game really well.

You have to be a pretty good hand reader to apply these things.

 What should I learn to beat 2/4 versus 1/2? Thanks. 

Micro-FR: One thing that really gave me trouble was the inability to 3bet aggressively preflop. This was because I was stealing a lot, but nobody else was. So I'd raise a CO opener with a wide range and get punished for it every time. It took me a while to learn that, against NITs, you have to be in position to play against their tight-ass ranges.

1/2 6-max vs lower levels: I found that here, not everyone was a spewtard anymore. You avg opponent is no longer a complete beginner/donkey, and so playing your own cards is no longer enough, really. Most of the regulars, though, have huge leaks at this level. What I had a hard time doing was adjusting my betting to specific opponents, rather than just play top pair for value, etc like a robot. I was really stubborn about multi-tabling, and 8+ tables became harder and harder as I moved up, and my competition became more and more varied.

2/4: The big thing I noticed here is that the regulars were actually TAGs or LAGs, rather than weak-tight or weak-loose. I think there are very few aggressive players at 1/2, and at 2/4 there are a ton. I, however, have always been very aggressive so I was able to adjust rather naturally. 3betting preflop, value betting lighter against people with wide ranges, and playing hyper-aggressive against people who got in over their heads in reraised pots are adjustments that came naturally to me, but may be more difficult for others.

3/6: Even though I think 2/4 and 3/6 are very similar, there was a significant change in the regulars' abilities to play postflop in reraised pots at this level. That gave me a lot of trouble, because at 2/4 I was spewing a lot postflop, but everyone played to scared that it was OK. At 3/6 I got punished for it much more often, and an unknown regular usually didn't want to give up his/her hand so easily. To adjust to this, I started checking behind in reraised pots when I didn't want to get check/raised off my hand. I stopped c-betting every single flop. Also (and this was so tough for me), I stopped 3betting from the blinds with such a ridiculously wide range.

5/10: I think 5/10 plays almost exactly the same as 3/6, but with a few regulars who really understand concepts like pot control, floating, etc, whose lines are harder to read/define, and who will adjust a lot faster to table dynamics. I've found that at 5/10, people don't often have gaping leaks in their games any more, and a lot of my money comes from just outplaying people postflop rather than forcing the same mistakes from people over and over. I find it a lot of fun, and have been able to play just 3-5 tables without getting too impatient.

edit, for Nielso: One thing that's nice about 2/4 is that, while people are more aggressive, their hands become more defined. I think that the big thing that people have trouble with is thinking about what their opponent has, rather than what they should do with their hand.

That's especially the case in position. It's very difficult to disguise ones' hand OOP because checking a big hand can result in keeping the pot small, getting outdrawn, etc, etc. So if you have position, villain's hand matters a lot more than yours. He'll usually let you know by the river whether he's willing to stack off or not. And if not, shove ldo.

 This has kinda been answered in the poker story, but what was the point in your poker development when you really had to reach beyond the forums and your own skill to keep on improving. How important are things like coaches or a buddy to discuss tons of hands and ideas with, and when in your poker development should you start using them? 

I think that talking about hands with stronger players is hugely beneficial no matter where you are in your development as a player. I don't think having a coach is necessary, but it really helped me, especially psychologically. It seems that my level of confidence as I play is directly proportional to my results.

Also, paying someone to coach you is a good way to get someone who's a lot better than you to talk to you about poker.

 You may be a great player and win over $100k by the end of the year, but you could simply be on a heater and be busto in 2 weeks.
Again, please don't take this the wrong way, but I am just concerned by your lack of consistant results over a period of time.
That being said, I still enjoyed reading your views on the game and the different levels. Anything I can read from players adds to my experience and improves my game. So for that, I thank you. 

I'm running about 5ptbb over my last 100k hands, and that winrate has been steadily increasing.
I guess it's possible I'm actually only a slight winner who's on a sick, sick heater that just keeps getting better.
But I'm not.
And even if I were, I think a slight winner at mid-high stakes can offer a lot to SSNL.

 cowpig, couple hand questions.
I play a style ranging from 18/16ish to 30/29 but 90% of the time its inbetween at 23/20 or 20/17 (so closer to the tighter end). Anyhow there is one super solid 30/23ish/2 at the tables. He doesn't reraise my UTG opens very often but he definitely does it with more than AA/KK. I'm pretty sure his range is JJ+/suited connectors/pairs where he's not rr'ing the SC's and pairs very often.
I raise QQ UTG, dude repops me in CO, I call.
Flop comes 965r. This guy rarely gets out of line postflop in rr'd pots from what I've seen, such that a bet/call would definitely be rlly rlly bad I think. What line do you take on this board and why?
I forgot my other question lol.
edit: oh 130BB deep. 

I'd check, as I expect him to cbet this flop. Then I'd shove over his cbet because my image is that of a retard and I'll get called by any pair, and because my shove is good for metagame.

With your image, though, I would probably check, tank a bit when he bets and then call, bet/call turn. It'll look like you had no plan when you checked the flop and are taking a crappy stop-n-go line with a marginal hand that's going to fold the turn. I would make sure to bet small enough on the turn that he'll think he has fold equity.

 So obv something must have "clicked" for the last 100k hands. Could you point to one or two things that changed? Did you stop bluffing so much? If so, what situations did you cut out of your game? 

I think by far the two biggest things are that I:

a) Maintain a calm, calculated approach on EVERY HAND. This means both that I don't tilt or bring my ego into the game, and that I try to analyze every hand and constantly ask myself questions like "Why am I taking this line?" "What is going to happen on the next street if I call this raise?" "What is his range and how can I build a pot vs the hands I'm ahead of?"

b) I've cut down to 4-6 tables so that I can focus on every hand I play, fully analyzing and picking up on timing tells (as well as creating false ones).

 cowpig - I tend to rr pretty often versus different tags with hands like KQ/AJ/AQ etc. But when I get to postflop I very rarely will bluff low flops like that (and this 30/29/2 guy is much the same, he's really solid). Should I be doing this? Like is it better to 3bet hands like SC's and QQ+/AK versus a tag UTG open than do it with the dominated hands like KQ/AQ/etc.
I guess your 3betting many more hands like ATs/22/SC's etc. and basically forcing your opponent to overadjust and start playing hands like TPGK OOP in rr'd pots for his entire stack to make it easier to get his money? just seems like my dynamic in rr'd pots its very weak/passive. 

To be honest, I just don't 3bet when people have tight ranges, and especially not when I'm in position. So when someone like you opens UTG, my 3betting range is quite tight. Since you're OOP, I'd rather have a wide, undefined range with position and a lot of BBs to work with postflop.

 you only want to play 30K hands at 5/10 before moving up? wow. i wouldn't even be confident in myself of beating the stakes after that many hands.
How important do you think metagame is at 200nl / 400nl / 600nl / 1knl ? Do you think it is worth minimising value with a hand just to keep consistent with how you play other hands? 

No. Metagame is only important if people are taking advantage of imbalances in your game, so if you are minimizing value, you are obviously worrying too much about metagame.

Also sometimes metagame lines are nice for tilt purposes. For example, if I've 3bet a guy every time he's raised the button for the last five orbits, and then we get involved in a pot and I flop a decent draw, I might try to get all-in as ridiculously as possible just so I can suck out on him and banish him to Tilt City.

Acid-
I remember playing you at nl100 like last year.. congrats on moving up so quickly this year.

A few things, you said you don't tilt. I'm pretty sure this was one of your downfalls beforehand, so if you could say a few things on how you controlled your tilt. Like, any breathing techniques or anything outside of poker that helped.. or did you just force yourself not to tilt anymore.. 

Why I used to tilt, but don't any more:

-I don't let pride affect my game. So when the same guy keeps winning pots against me, I don't get upset. Instead I look at what kind of boards he's raising on, and things like that. Or I just avoid sitting on his right (Like Leatherass, PolyBaller, or TWP when I was at 2/4 - 3/6, and Straate, 20 Buck Spin, or Elky now).

-I keep a sklansky bux mentality. When I get all-in, if I was a favorite, I'm like "yesssss" even if I lose.

-I think before I act. I think this is the biggest thing. I think a ton of my tilt used to come from making what I subconsciously knew were bad decisions, but my ego prevented me from admitting it to myself (if that makes any sense). Now I stop and analyze things coldly before I make a decision, so I don't often make the same mistake twice. Also, I remember a lot of times where I was faced with a decision and had a "AWW HELL IM ALL IN GOD BLESS AMERICA" type thought process, and that would tilt me BADLY. If I am satisfied with my analysis of a hand before I act, I find I tilt much less.

-Finally, I stop playing if I lose enough that I'm not happy about it. This is huge. Being down 3+ buyins in one session makes me want to get back even, so I stop playing. Sometimes if I start a session and lose two big pots right away, I'll just stop and not play again until I've slept, had a meal, or done something else that resets my mood (hint: pron). Playing to get even = spew.

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 are you the same acidca that fischman talks about, that ended up heads up at a pokerstars tourney w/him.
He gave u props if you haven't read it. 

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Linky?

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http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/article/9314 
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sweet, thanks

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This is my lifetime graph from .25/.50, where I used to be a 12-tabling bot:

You can see how bad a problem tilt used to be for me. Each sharp downward spike = tilt.

 can you post a screenshot of your position stats at the micros, and ssnl, curious to see what if any differences you had over an decent amount of hands 

Top is .25/.50 FR, where I played the most hands by far. Middle is 1/2NL, bottom is 2/4 and 3/6

abdaar · #2 11-26-2007, 03:00 PM

These posts always bring a tear to my eye. Great story, I wouldn't mind reading a blog if you had one.

Ratamahatta · #3 11-26-2007, 03:05 PM

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These posts always bring a tear to my eye. Great story, I wouldn't mind reading a blog if you had one.

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It's just a summary of a well post.

Anyway, great job bubaloo. Are you planning on doing them all? If so, gogogogogo!!!!!!!!!!!

bubaloo · #4 11-26-2007, 03:37 PM

yeah gonna be doing them all, i havent read most of them, so im just summarizing as i read. there is some absolute gold advice in them.

BigPoppa · #5 11-26-2007, 04:42 PM

Thanks bubaloo
What you're doing is awesome

cowpig · #6 12-01-2007, 01:10 AM

Kinda cool to look back and see how much things have changed since I did this Well.

I'd like to point out that I was pretty naive about variance when I did this well. I'd played something like 300k hands lifetime(?) and had never experienced a really awful, extended run of cards...

Also lol @ thinking I could win for 7.5ptbb long-term after that heater. 5-ish is more realistic.

orange · #7 12-01-2007, 01:45 AM

cow you really think you can win 5ptbb/100 at 5/10+? that seems extremely high for all but the very best players. eh? (have not played that high but from what ive heard, 5/10+ seem to be facing stiffer competition these days).

PBJaxx · #8 12-01-2007, 01:53 AM

Bubaloo, this is really cool. Good work!

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