QQ 3 bet pot oop - seemingly simple spot

[Profish2285]

Villain runs at 18/13/4 over a large sample.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP ($50.90)
<font color="#C00000">CO ($112.20)</font>
Button ($17.30)
SB ($116.05)
BB ($114.30)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($50.75)</font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls $4.25.

Flop: ($12.75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero....

[captfunk99]

call and see what happens on turn. I'd have bet flop

[PatBateman]

ugly spot. You beat not much here except AK maybe AQs and some PPs like 88, 99. soo folding is maybe a little too weak, maybe call and hope for help on the turn? then C/F if no help comes?

[Profish2285]

I dont like calling here but you guys might be right. I think calling lets his AK draw/get away cheap.

[PatBateman]

So you think about raising? I hate raising here because u commit yourself and are likely to be beat.

[Julio Dalehurst]

I hate spots like these but I think you have to bet the flop. As played, folding seems so weak but against such a TAG I would fold, your equity against his range is not very good at all.

[Profish2285]

C/f here is terrible imo. Donking seems bad also in that I dont get a c-bet from the hands I beat but I get raised by those that beat me. The mantra seems to be that with QQ we try to get it in on any non A/K flop when involved in a 3 bet pot. How is this different if its different at all? If you think it is then why?

[Daniel LeClaire]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like calling here but you guys might be right. I think calling lets his AK draw/get away cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but raising has no value because he never calls with AK. Not only that, but if he shoves his AK or draw and you fold you've made an even bigger mistake.

C/f is best. Calling gives villain 2 free cards. If you call and turn is a blank are you betting? If you check he will check behind and then get to see a river card too. If no A/K hits he probably won't call any bet on the river. Basically, you don't stand to win anymore money but you can certainly lose more.

I usually end up calling flop and c/f turn. Just a tough spot to play.

[Profish2285]

This may be an exaggeration but if I am going to c/f this flop then maybe I should just fold pf. If I cant be happy getting my money in with QQ on a board with no A or K then Im essentially set mining.

[Daniel LeClaire]

[ QUOTE ]
This may be an exaggeration but if I am going to c/f this flop then maybe I should just fold pf. If I cant be happy getting my money in with QQ on a board with no A or K then Im essentially set mining.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that this board contains a J and T. An 18/13 probably isn't 3 betting your UTG raise light. I think TT+, AQ, AK is reasonable. The few hands you were ahead of pf you are now behind. If you knew the flop would be T/J/x then, yes, you could fold pf. But you don't know that. Nothing wrong with c/f a bad flop.