Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis

[pepper123]

Zook also got into that fight at a frat house...

[IlliniLou]

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Zook also got into that fight at a frat house...

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yeah but who doesnt get into fights at frat houses?

[shemp]

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Nothing delusional about ND's record improving from 5-7 and 6-6 (Willingham) to 9-3 and 10-3 (Weis).

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So Weiss gets a pass because his recruits are still young. Yet it's Willingham's fault they went 5-7 then 6-6 with the same aged recruits?

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The difference is that Ty's recruiting classes were ranked low. See, if Ty would have had higher recruiting classes he could have started out 0-8 in his first three years too and the Domers would have been patient, because if there's one thing we know it is that race had (absolutely) nothing to do with it.

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Feel free to share any of the highly dubious arguments on Tyrone Willingham's firing being on account of race and I'll be happy to dismantle each one by one.

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Forget why he got fired. I'm curious if you think race had anything to do with him getting hired. I seem to remember Bob Davie complaining about admissions being a barrier to getting "the black athlete" at ND. Did Ty's race help him get hired?

[Bigdaddydvo]

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Nothing delusional about ND's record improving from 5-7 and 6-6 (Willingham) to 9-3 and 10-3 (Weis).

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So Weiss gets a pass because his recruits are still young. Yet it's Willingham's fault they went 5-7 then 6-6 with the same aged recruits?

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The difference is that Ty's recruiting classes were ranked low. See, if Ty would have had higher recruiting classes he could have started out 0-8 in his first three years too and the Domers would have been patient, because if there's one thing we know it is that race had (absolutely) nothing to do with it.

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Feel free to share any of the highly dubious arguments on Tyrone Willingham's firing being on account of race and I'll be happy to dismantle each one by one.

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Forget why he got fired. I'm curious if you think race had anything to do with him getting hired. I seem to remember Bob Davie complaining about admissions being a barrier to getting "the black athlete" at ND. Did Ty's race help him get hired?

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Sadly, I think it did. Since ND was reeling PR wise from the George O'Leary padded resume scandal, I think the Administration folks saw hiring a minority coach as a partial antidote to the bad publicity (while failing to consider potential negative publicity of someday having to replace this guy).

[vulturesrow]

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To RZ's credit, he set up Urban Meyer with player talent that could rival anyone in the nation. It's the reason when Meyer was comparing the ND/UF jobs, his dad famously advised that "he could win sooner in Flordia" With a national championship in his 2nd year, the results obviously speak for themselves. Though I think Weis is the better long term hire for ND (he's an ND guy and isn't going anywhere whereas UM may have used the job as a stepping stone) it's impossible not to wonder how UM would be doing at this stage of the game at ND.


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Yeah no one that knows anything about college football is going to deny that Zook left the cupboard full of talent for Meyer. But his head coaching left something to be desired. As for how UM may have done at ND, I dont follow ND football close enough to know. But he does have some serious coaching chops, look at what he did before he came to Florida.

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BTW Navy has to be psyched that this could be the year Notre Dame's 38 (?) game win streak may end...given this season's debacle and my service academy affiliation I may end up cheering for you guys.

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I'm cautiously optimistic..certainly if there were ever a year to do it, it might this year. Of course the pessimist in me says that ND might just use Navy as an outlet for their frustrations this year, it might be more likely to beat them in a good year when their guard is down. But based on what I've seen of ND this season (which isnt much) Army has a chance. And FWIW, I always root for the other service academies when they arent playing Navy. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[pvn]

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So back to back BCS bowls don't mean anything?

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Wouldn't that have been with... *gasp* Ty's recruits???

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Recruits that Ty couldn't coach...you bet.

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So assuming Weis could coach Ty's recruits better... now he has fewer of Ty's recruits, and more of his own. What's the problem?

[johnnylovescandy]

Could be Weis has such severe halitosis that no one wants to get close. Probably why he wears the mike & headphones...

[RR]

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As a Florida alum, I will say this. Whoever followed Spurrier @ UF was set-up to fail. Zook had no chance from day 1.

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Probably very similar to Earle Bruce at Ohio State. He had some decent years, but was never liked in Columbus.

[shemp]

BDY, Thanks for the answer. I think I'm getting the picture.

1. Notre Dame hired a minority for good publicity, hoping it would help recruit blacks, and generally because affirmative action is part of the white man's burden.

2. Those people who hired him told us that they hired the best man available, and that race had nothing to do with the supremely qualified person-- but many ND fans knew differently, and crossed their fingers and held their breath.

3. Turned out the coach was lazy and stupid (in addition to being unqualified) and after he went 10-3, he was still on probation. The next two years saw mediocrity descend on Irish football, and given that the guy at the helm was stupid and lazy, there wasn't much point in giving him any slack because someone else's kids were in the upper classes.

4. Now, the people who hired him because he was black (but told us they did not), fired him entirely because he underperformed in a job he was not qualified to have. A tragedy of affirmative action, and at the same time, perhaps ironically, race had nothing to do with it, not the culture he was working in, not the guarded reception he was given, the harsh judgment of stupid and lazy, or the skepticism with which his success was viewed-- race had absolutely nothing to do with it.

I'm willing to believe that ND is just tough on coaches, and they have reason to expect better performance than they've gotten-- but I think you might see how someone could get the wrong idea.

[Dids]

Wasn't TW hired after the George O'Leary [censored] up? Then after that everybody patted themselves on the back for hiring such a high character guy? (this mostly because Ty won't ever raise his voice and has the personality of a dead goat).