Do you think bots are cheating?

[J.A.Sucker]

Just a cultural point that I've been thinking about for awhile and I guess it's a current issue for many.

Do you think bots are cheating?

More specifically, if I programmed a bot to play poker according to my style/poker tracker, etc, is this cheating?

Obviously, a bot programmed by the site to play with more information than a normal player would have or some other rigged "break even bot" or bots that were collusive would be cheating. However, I'm talking only about a single bot that I put into the game. Never more than one bot per table.

FWIW, I never made any of these bots, but I don't think it's cheating.

[danzasmack]

it is 100% cheating

my winrate is what it is only because i don't tilt. bots don't tilt. the only reason i don't play 100k hands a month is because i can't. you're not playing (the bot is) and you're taking an unfair edge in the hours you can play, as well as not being vulnerable to tilt.

not even close it is cheating and terrible for the games.

[Neko]

I've waffled back and forth a bit on this in the past but I pretty much tend to agree with danza. Totaly removing the psychological aspect of poker does not seem fair and constitutes cheating in my mind.

[emerson]

It is cheating if it is not allowed by the site. Simple as that. If other players know that bots are allowed, it is not cheating.

[J.A.Sucker]

How is a bot any different than some dude making 100% of their decisions based on pokertracker? If it's really 100% of their decision making process, then they won't tilt. In this case, they are doing something better than you. How is this any different than if I were to be doing the same? Like I said, no information advantage, no collusion, and the same cards/playing conditions that we have.

As for hours, I think your argument is a non-factor.

I do agree it's bad for the game though. I don't know if that's enough to consider it cheating, though. In time, it may be enough to destroy internet poker, though.

[J.A.Sucker]

[ QUOTE ]
It is cheating if it is not allowed by the site. Simple as that. If other players know that bots are allowed, it is not cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem with this.

Of course, where do you draw the line? What about the 100% pokertracker database guy who doesn't make any decisions. Is this cheating?

Suppose I hired a minimum wage worker to push the buttons according to what my data-analysis program says to do. Is this cheating? There are lots of players who basically play this way after awhile. Are they cheats?

Just curious.

[runway model]

[ QUOTE ]
What about the 100% pokertracker database guy who doesn't make any decisions. Is this cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]

In theory, no. However....

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose I hired a minimum wage worker to push the buttons according to what my data-analysis program says to do. Is this cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost certainly your program will contravene the terms and conditions of the site on which you are playing. Poker Tracker doesn't compare the expected value of rival lines. If it did, it would be banned.

So in practice, yes this will be against the terms and conditions. And therefore yes, it would be cheating.

[ QUOTE ]

There are lots of players who basically play this way after awhile. Are they cheats?
Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a sneaky argument, but it relies on a false premiss. Players who "basically" play this way are NOT "actually" playing this way. They know which lines they want to take in generic situations because they have spent time analysing away from the tables. But they do not sit with software in front of them which is number crunching the computer estimated EV of alternative lines while playing.

So these players aren't cheating. But it would in practice be impossible to design software which gave your workers enough information to play on auto pilot, but which didn't contravene the playing conditions of thew major sites.

On a separate note, when the the use of bots is widespread and out of control, sites will eventually just allow their use, and good players will have a selection of 'analysis engines' running in the background. Analysis engines are only as good as the assumptions they are fed, and the role of the good players will be to digest and use the information to best exploit their semi-human semi-android opponents.

There will be a new breed of android fish swimming in poker space, and more than likely they will be launched from Russia and play high stakes no limit at Party Poker.

[J.A.Sucker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What about the 100% pokertracker database guy who doesn't make any decisions. Is this cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]

In theory, no. However....

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose I hired a minimum wage worker to push the buttons according to what my data-analysis program says to do. Is this cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost certainly your program will contravene the terms and conditions of the site on which you are playing. Poker Tracker doesn't compare the expected value of rival lines. If it did, it would be banned.

So in practice, yes this will be against the terms and conditions. And therefore yes, it would be cheating.

[ QUOTE ]

There are lots of players who basically play this way after awhile. Are they cheats?
Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a sneaky argument, but it relies on a false premiss. Players who "basically" play this way are NOT "actually" playing this way. They know which lines they want to take in generic situations because they have spent time analysing away from the tables. But they do not sit with software in front of them which is number crunching the computer estimated EV of alternative lines while playing.

So these players aren't cheating. But it would in practice be impossible to design software which gave your workers enough information to play on auto pilot, but which didn't contravene the playing conditions of thew major sites.

On a separate note, when the the use of bots is widespread and out of control, sites will eventually just allow their use, and good players will have a selection of 'analysis engines' running in the background. Analysis engines are only as good as the assumptions they are fed, and the role of the good players will be to digest and use the information to best exploit their semi-human semi-android opponents.

There will be a new breed of android fish swimming in poker space, and more than likely they will be launched from Russia and play high stakes no limit at Party Poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I say 100% pokertracker guy, I mean they have sat down and figured out a strategy based on statistics to make a decision. This is very difficult, but people do work on this and many do pretty well. My bot would be programmed the same way and do the same thing. How is this any different?

There have been lots of threads about people helping others when they play. This is no different than what I just wrote down with my minimum wage worker. In fact, it's no different than my pokertracker guy using a database to make decisions. I don't think a program that tells you what to do violates the site T & C. People use twodimes and probably pokerstove to make tourney decisions all the time.

When I brought up the players playing by rote, "basically" was probably a poor choice of words. Suppose they did. Some probably do for all I know. Are they cheats? I think not.

Even if they sometimes made their own decisions, suppose my bot did the same and sent me a text message to tell it what to do at certain times. Maybe I sit there and surf porno while they play and only make difficult decisions. I'm playing at times, but my bot plays the straightforward ones. Other than who pushes the buttons, how is this different than these by rote players? I don't think it is.

I'm sure there are short-stacking bots that play PLO and NL already. There are probably SNG bots, too. Those would be the easiest to build and implement since the math is first-level only. However, it's a matter of time before things escalate, and I don't think it's cheating.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]

When I say 100% pokertracker guy, I mean they have sat down and figured out a strategy based on statistics to make a decision. This is very difficult, but people do work on this and many do pretty well. My bot would be programmed the same way and do the same thing. How is this any different?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because his girlfriend will break up with him for playing to much poker and that will effect his play. He will be tired after playing a lot of poker, and that will effect his play. Computers have no such problem with this and play their A+ game 100% of the time and can play 24 hours a day.

[sweetjazz]

Whether it is cheating or not depends only on the rules of the site you are playing at. If the rules of the game required you to be wearing purple underwear, then anyone who didn't would be cheating.

I think what you are really asking is should using bots be considered cheating or is there something inherently wrong with using a bot. . .