LO8 Hand

[WMB]

On the river, I like a raise. Your read is the bettor has the nut low, which seems right on given the action. As long as he's only going 1 way, a raise has to be right given the size of this pot (especially considering the turn checked through!). Your line screams nut flush draw, but it could also be hands that got a sizeable piece of the flop and just boated up. I think you can definitely get UTG to fold a slightly better high (AK really), but if the guy behind you is a total moron, he might not be going anywhere no matter what you do. Still, I'd argue Raise > Fold > Call.

As an aside, a very, very solid player (best I've seen at this game) made a promo raise on a scary river that tricked me into folding the best high hand (top 2) at a low stakes Foxwoods game last Saturday night. He actually ended up scooping the hand. I think it was probably the most sophisticated raise I've ever seen at those stakes, and a play that I certainly don't even contemplate, let alone use very often. I was actually inspired to read the scare card bluff section of SS2 again with an eye towards using that bluff as a way to promo a moderate 2 way hand. I never even considered how much I might be leaving on the table by not having a weapon like that in my arsenal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being able to make plays like this in the right situations is part of what separates the really good players from the tight ABC run of the mill good players IMO.

[facialabuse]

I think its safe to say OP has a firm grasp of promo-raising but in a loose game with 2 (!) players actually knowing 8/ob beyond reading the board it may be -EV...
pot size is key here, as is just reading mike capelleti's articles/book chapter on promo-raising...

pot is huge, which is obv. a double-edged sword-our double-bet risk is more palatable to us-but it is also more likely to get called given size of pot
-ALSO-promoraising a 4-way pot of this size is suicidal-I jist rechecked the action: 4 ppl raise pre, cap flop, and you're going to promo? that ish is ka
thirdly-im going to go ahead and guess that loose guy actually has 2467 or something very similar with a 6 and a shtty flush draw, point being that this is at least as likely as him actually having 23...236x is completely realistic, too
the question is not whether ak folds (I think it has to) but whether a raggy 6 folds (and I think at that limit it NEVER does barring reads)

[HLS2k6]

[ QUOTE ]

Being able to make plays like this in the right situations is part of what separates the really good players from the tight ABC run of the mill good players IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is unquestionably true. Although I'm probably closer to the latter, I'm working on developing these skills. I suspect many winning players at my level/the games I'm in would never recognize a play like that, let alone contemplate making it themselves.

[1MoreFish4U]

I frequently have been three betting preflop in these situations recently, with some success. It makes it less likely that anyone behind me will come along, and if the UTG is on AA - it may be 2 more bets to the guy in the middle, who will be OOP throughout the hand and either has to have a powerful hand or be a total donkey to call 2 more bets pf.

As you played it, I would play as you did on the flop maybe a third of the time, otherwise just calling. There are pros & cons to both approaches.

I see nothing good in letting the turn go past without betting, unless you plan to check fold the river if you miss.

While you can take a stab at the river, you are likely facing a set of aces, a flukey 3rd 6, and a better low.

If you sense that neither 3 Aces or 3 6s are against you, then by all means raise the river to get AK to fold if it is there.

[Rush17]

My thoughts:

The reason I played the flop so hard was because I felt that, unless the utg player flopped trip A's and/or a nut low, then he would really have to consider folding. He knows I'm tight, and I know that he respects my game. And, I'm also aware that he's capable of folding, which is good for me, especially given the fact that my 2-way hand isn't really that strong.

I also thought, by playing the flop aggressively, that even if everyone did call, well at least I was drawing to the nut flush. And, I did feel that my 3 bet would've folded the player behind me, and, at the time, I was really wishing that he did fold because I wanted the chance to act last on the turn, and, I thought it may have given me a better shot to get a piece of the pot.

And, the reason why I decided to check the turn was because I felt there was a strong possibility of getting checkraised given the previous actions. I wanted the free card, and because my raises tend to slow my opponents down, I knew (or at least I thought) that if I jam the flop, then perhaps I won't have to pay to draw on the turn. (typing that last sentence really feels wrong to me because I should be thinking in terms of winning the hand and not *having to get there* to win the hand).

The river was the real dilemma for me. I knew I wasn't folding. I put the bettor on a nut low. And even if he had some type of 2-way hand, I felt fairly confident with my high hand. My only concern was the original raiser (don't ask me why I didn't give any credit to the other player, I just didn't think he had much of anything). So, does The utg hold AK? And, would raising get him to fold AK? At first glance, you would think that he'd HAVE to fold that hand, but, if you were playing against me, what hand would you read me for after I jammed the flop but checked the turn? See, to me, it doesn't add up. There's no way that I'd raise the river with a 236 because I'd obviously want the overcalls. And if I held a nut low with a pair, I'd be betting the turn, too.

And, there's no way the utg has trip Aces because, considering that the turn got checked around, he'd have to realize that the river might get checked, too, so he's not going to check that hand twice. I thought he was clever enough to call 2 cold with an AK. So, right or wrong, I chose to just call the river and both players behind me called. The bettor wound up having the nut low/no pair (he also had a flush draw)...and both players behind me held the same hand, which was AT/no low, so my AQ was good enough for half.

Any more critiques? Feel free. The advice/comments was much great and much appreciated. Thanks.

[Buzz]

Rush - I intended to respond earlier, but got sidetracked and somehow never got back to your post.

As played, I'd raise on the river too.

I'd probably play other betting rounds differently, but don't find fault with your reasoning for betting the way you did.

On the river, I'd like to get it heads-up with Loose Guy, hoping to win half the pot one way or another. I would think it possible that Loose Guy had a six, but I would take the chance. And if Loose Guy has a six, maybe I win for low. Hard to believe UTG has a six, but UTG might have AK or a better low and might get out of the way to a double bet. Clueless might also get out of the way to a double bet.

As you played it, you did better than I would have.

Buzz

[Rush17]

Buzz- So, would your line be something like this: Call the preflop raise, just call the raise on the flop, bet the turn, raise the river? That seems to be the consensus here.

Results aside (cause results don't matter nearly as much as playing a hand as optimally as I am capable of playing it) I think a river raise would've been the better choice because it has to give me a better chance at taking a piece of the pot. I was just fortunate that everyone held what they did, and, for the fact that they both decided to overcall the one bet on the river. But, that's a pretty rare occurance, and that's what lead me to question myself on the play of this hand. It's so easy to think nothing of your play when you wind up winning the hand...Au contraire!

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Buzz- So, would your line be something like this: Call the preflop raise, just call the raise on the flop, bet the turn, raise the river? That seems to be the consensus here.

[/ QUOTE ]Rush - I'd definitely just call the raise before the flop. Hero has a pulling hand and wants customers drawing for non-nut flushes and non-nut lows. In addition, there’s always the possibility the pre-flop raiser has a better pre-flop low draw than Hero. If Hero makes low here, it might be only for a quarter of the pot.

But then after the flop although Hero still has a pulling hand, there are only four opponents. Unlike before the flop, there's nobody much left to pull. So I don’t know what I’d do. Maybe raise, maybe call. (I wouldn’t fold, but I’m not big on either of the other two options). Probably would depend on my opponents and how I had been playing up to this point.

Then what to do after this turn would depend on what I did on the flop. I’d probably bet it if nobody in front of me did.

And I’ve already stated what I’d do on the river. (I’d raise).

[ QUOTE ]
I think a river raise would've been the better choice because it has to give me a better chance at taking a piece of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly. [ QUOTE ]
I was just fortunate that everyone held what they did, and, for the fact that they both decided to overcall the one bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree.

Buzz

[Heron]

I have a question about loose guy's play on the turn. Why didn't he bet his nut low then? I ask because I would have done that against 3 opponents and I wonder whether that is a mistake I regularly make.

[howzit]

the flop 3 bet, turn check is a dead giveaway you airballed.

the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] out there makes it even easier to see that you missed.

depends on how tricky you think the bettor is knownig you missed and is stabbing but if these guys are not tricky, i'd fold.

i do think raising here is a bit spewy given that you're not sure if the loose player is sitting only on a nut low.


let's say in a vaccum, this is a fold, you can easily get scoopped by the loose player if you raise the river here.

i just saw the results. . . .lololololo. the last guy overcalled two people with a ten kicker....hahahahahaha