Razz -- worst hand wins on Absolute

[LearnedfromTV]

hahahahahhhahaahhaaahahahahahaha

[chillrob]

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You're right. Then again, at this point I don't expect the support people to follow a logical argument. I truly hope they have poker experts available for these types of questions. Does Absolute sponsor anyone?

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Just the chick in the skimpy bikini IIRC. I'd suggest asking to talk to a manager, but somehow I doubt they know anything about razz either.

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Michael Mizrachi is in the AP magazine ads. Wouldn't know how to get hold of him though...

[aramfingal]

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Michael Mizrachi is in the AP magazine ads.

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They sponsor Mark Seif too.
This is the most amazing thing I've seen since the Full Tilt bots thread.

[Fleshbot]

All right, I got another response from the Absolute support staff! I think you'll all be interested to know their unique rules for the game of Razz. Hold onto your hats!

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Thank you for your email.

It seems we have a little misunderstanding here; in Razz games, players need to form their hands out of five cards.

As you know flushes and straights have no effect deciding the out come of the games, but pairs do not help you get a better game as well.

We took the time to check the records of the hand in question [Hand #744577709] and this is what we found:

FLESHBOT - Shows [Ac 9s 7c 3s Ad 3h 9h] (9,7,3,A,A)

PEGGY456 - Shows [4s 2h 7s 5d 4d 5s 4c] (7,5,4,4,2)

Player named PEGGY456 did have a pair of fours however, that is not the reason the hand was awarded to this player.

This player won the hand due to his highest lowest card, he had a Seven and you had a Nine which is the reason you lost the hand in question.

Finally, just for the record, pairs do not count to decide the outcome of a Razz game. The only thing the game considers is the value of the cards not if they are paired.

Thanks for playing at Absolute Poker! If there is anything else we can help you with, please let us know. We are here for you!

Sincerely,

Percy
Team Absolute ~ Customer Support
"To Continue to be the Best and Most Trusted"
Support@AbsolutePoker.Com

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And my response:
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Thank you so much for clarifying your position that pairs do not count in your Razz game. I still see three problems:

1) Your rules site does not state this.
2) No other Razz game spread anywhere has this rule.
3) Your own site does not follow this rule (example below).

(1) I had no idea that pairs did not count in Razz, since as your rules site states "Razz is 7 Card Stud where the best low hand wins" and "Aces are always low, and straights and flushes have no effect on the low value of a hand". As you know, pairs DO count in 7 Card Stud, so if pairs do not count in Razz, that is a major exception and must be spelled out clearly. Not to mention it is hardly 7 Card Stud any more if only low cards count. What poker hands are left?

(2) I've played on Full Tilt and Poker Stars, with professional players, and neither site has the rule that pairs do not count. I've also played in Las Vegas, including at the 2007 World Series of Poker Razz Championship, and they do not have this rule. Again, if your game has an extraordinary exception, you must spell it out!

(3) Unfortunately I was unable to find another example in my hand history of two pairs going to showdown, but I did find one pair at showdown that lost to a King. According to you, pairs do not count, so the King should have lost. You cannot have it both ways (hand 748378077):

*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($11.20:$5.20,$6) | Rake ($0.50:$0.24,$0.26)
Seat 3: Player 1 Folded on the 3rd STREET
Seat 4: Player 2 won Total ($5.74) with 8,7,7,4,3 [7s 8s 4d 7c 8h 3s 7h - B:3s,B:4d,B:7c,B:7h,B:8h]
Seat 5: Player 3 Folded on the RIVER
Seat 6: Player 4 Folded on the 3rd STREET
Seat 8: Player 5 won Total ($4.96) All-In with K,6,4,2,A [6d 2c Ac Kd 6s 4s As - B:Ac,P:2c,B:4s,P:6d,B:Kd]

It's a little confusing as Player 5 was all-in before showdown, but if truly pairs do not count, then the 8 should have beat the King. And by the way, if pairs do not count, why in the world would the software play five cards with a King anyway? Surely 6,4,2,A,A has a lower high card! Your own software contradicts your explanation.

Look, I know you are nice and helpful people in support, and mean no ill will towards you, but you clearly do not know anything about the game of Razz. Please ask someone who does.

[RubbishCards]

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due to his highest lowest card

[/ QUOTE ]I think that says it all.

[Alchemist]

I wonder if it would help if we emailed them links to other online sites' rules to Razz. On Stars' page, they have a list of ranked hands from worse to better and have KK432 correctly ranked worse than 22765, which Absolute would get wrong. FTP's site is useless however.

Seems like there must be some central authority that has a compilation on all the rules and scenarios.

[Fleshbot]

I don't know if that would help - maybe I'll try that next. I didn't really want to argue from authority--"everybody else plays Razz *this* way"--but thought it might add to the logical argument since they seem to have trouble following along. Honestly, I didn't expect as many responses as they have given me. Hopefully they will respond at least once more. Also, if you notice, three different support people have responded so it might be a case of arguing the same thing over and over again.

[electrical]

It seems their "pairs don't count" rule only applies to showdowns between two paired hands. Which is a special little rule all by itself. Pairs count, but only when deciding whether or not to use the pairs don't count rule.

pffft.

[SGspecial]

This thread has gone from gold to platinum.

Fleshbot for mod!

BTW, I bet the argument that "everyone else does it a different way" is bound to fall on deaf ears since they can apply whatever rules they want to their games. The real issue is the SW violates their own rules, with the actual rules of the game covering all situations not spelled out specifically on their site.

I have a feeling tho if a K high flush lost to an A high straight in HE, they'd fix the problem PDQ.

[chucky]

Does this mean I should play rolled up Kings to the river then complain to them when I dont win?