Who continues pass the flop?

[Rush17]

$80-160 mixed game (H.O.E.) at the Taj Mahal.

The game is 8 handed and it's off the charts. The players in this particular hand, however, were at least somewhat knowledgeable of the games, although one of the players had just sat down and I've never played with him before so no read on him whatsoever.

Ok, here's the hand:

UTG(aggro player, but not too spewy) open raises. Folded to MP (a friend of mine who kinda tends to overplay A2, A23 type hands and will always reraise someone even in the early positions) who 3-bets the hand. I'm next to act and look down at AA45 double suited(clubs/diamonds). There were 4-5 players behind me, and the loosest player in the game had actually folded already...

1st Question: Who caps the betting with my hand/who smooth calls the reraise. Folding is not an option.

Here's what happened: I decided to cap the betting ( a big weakness of mine, I'll admit) and the new guy cold calls the four bets(wtf is going on here!?). All else fold, we take the flop 4 handed.

J-5-8 rainbow

UTG bets, my friend raises.

Who calls here, who 3 bets, who folds? And yes, folding is an option here, correct?

Of course, still in love with my hand, I decide to cap and hopefully chase away the one player behind me. Nope! He calls.

The turn is another offsuit card, this time it's a King...a real klunker for my hand, imo. Now what?

I often find myself in these situations...build really big pots because I'm trying to get my hand HU or close to it, and then the flop comes out and it really doesn't fit as good as I think it should fit, but, the pot is huge.

Everyone called the four bets on the flop and the UTG player leaded out once again on the turn...my friend called, I called, and the other player called, as well.

I'll give the results later if anyones interested, although I'm not so sure they matter as much as my particular decisions do.

[bbartlog]

Fold flop I think. But notice that since you are double-suited and the pot is huge, it might make a difference whether you have two backdoor flush draws or just one.

[WMB]

Fold the flop. You have no low potential with a mediocre high with weak chances for improvement, while in bad position (likely chance of being jammed. If I didn't have a player behind me and the pot was 3-handed and I had 2 bd flush draws I would see the turn. For that reason, I would also cap the preflop betting if there was a reasonable chance I could buy position throughout the hand. Unfortunately it didn't work out for you, fold the flop

[Rush17]

It seems like folding the flop was the best course of action (I'd like to hear other opinions, as well). My thinking was like this----it was 4 of us to the flop for a cap bet so the pot stood at about ~$1200 before the flop and it was costing me 2 cold bets($160) to call the flop. I didn't feel that the player behind me was going to raise so I was pretty certain that I was going to get to see the turn for just 2 small bets, and, with the pot being of that size, I thought it was correct(although it felt really spewy) to continue.

I'm trying to find that 'happy middle' where I'm making sure that I don't fold my hands too prematurely if the pot justifies a call(as in this hand). And, I'm also trying to be in that 'right place of mind' where I don't become really spewy just because the pot is big(as in this hand). I hope I'm making sense, it's just that, I go along having a really good session(making good judgment calls, strong laydowns which I feel are correct, picking off bluffs etc. etc., and then a hand like this comes along (and It always seems to happen when I hold AAxx) and I just can't let go of it. Any words of wisdom?

[rando]

I think the biggest risk with so many cards out there is that one hand has you dead both ways. A2 with 67 or T9 for instance. With this many players, the simple danger of a flopped set is enough for me to get out of the way, and certainly avoid deluding myself into thinking I can muscle much of anything out on such a flop. I suppose some will think you are A2 but I don't think you'll get a ton of info taking the flop line you did.

[howzit]

flop action seems off. did you 3 bet and get capped behind you? where was the guy who called 4 cold preflop?

backdoor flushes?

[Rush17]

[ QUOTE ]
flop action seems off. did you 3 bet and get capped behind you? where was the guy who called 4 cold preflop?

backdoor flushes?

[/ QUOTE ]


The utg player (who was the original preflop raiser) lead out. The MP raised, and then I 3-bet it. I was trying to at least fold off the player behind me who had originally cold-called the cap betting before the flop. My attempt failed, however, as he wound up cold-calling the 3 flop bets and then utg put the cap on it.

And, I'm almost positive that I didn't have a backdoor flush to draw to either.

[HOWMANY]

As I was reading the OP I was thinking to myself how nice it would be to call the 3 bets cold preflop and then isolate your friend on a ton of flops given your read on his play.

On the flop I don't really see a 3bet getting out a better low draw by the guy that called 4 cold. Your friend tends to overplay his low oriented hands so he will have pair+low draw usually here I assume. The lag's donk is confusing to me but I feel it may be a reasonable two way hand here where he's hoping someone will raise. So basically I don't see anything we want to fold going anywhere if we 3bet again. The pot is decent sized however it also looks like it could explode in size either here or on the turn. I think calling and reevaluating the turn is an option as well as folding now. I prefer folding.

As played, getting bet out into again on the turn is brutal, but the pot is enormous so I think it may be time to start being as optimistic about our outs as possible. A 2/3 should be solid for us for half, seeing a 5 could give us a scoop. An 8 isn't something that should fill our hearts with joy but it gives us a bit of hope. There aren't any Aces left in the deck so we don't have to worry about that really. I doubt a 4 is good here, it probably gives us enough to make a very unhappy crying call. 6-8 probably make us lose everything and pay off as well.

Too lazy to find out pot size or actually put more thought into the weight of your outs, but I am guessing that we are forced to call again on the turn and hope for a happy ending somehow.

[Shabamabam]

How often and what times does this game run?

Are people allowed to sit out for the Stud Hi/Lo part?

[Rush17]

A mixed game of this limit rarely gets off at the Taj. But it is the summertime, and it does bring in more tourists, which means you can expect to see new games/limits going off, especially on the weekends. Yeah, you can sit out on the stud8 round if you chose to do so, but don't be surprised if some of the players ask you why you're not playing all the games. Imo, if it's a 2-way game, then you should probably play both. But in a 3-way/4-way mixed game, it's not such a big deal if someone wished to not participate in one of the games that was in the rotation.
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If I had the chance to isolate my friend on the flop, believe me I would have. But the pesky little utg player just wouldn't stop betting!

Anyway, given my read on what my friend's most probable holding was (and on the flop I thought he either had an AA2 or an A23 hand along with maybe flopping a pair). And I also gave the utg player a similar holding: either AA2, A23, or something close to A2Jx. I didn't really think that he held an A23 because he was utg, although of course it was definitely possible. Either way, though, no matter who held which of those hands, the thing is, all of the possible hands I just listed were more than likely accounted for, which leaves me to my hand and its percentages to hold up and/or to improve. And if I only knew that the utg player was never going to back down, then of course I would've bailed out much, much sooner.

I 3-bet the flop because I felt that if the player behind me didn't have low cards/draw, then I didn't want him chasing/drawing with a runner/runner type hand. But even so, was my hand even strong enough to play against utg and the MP player?

HOWMANY: you were pretty dead-on with your analysis.

For anyone who's interested: the river was a Queen (J85KQ). Everyone checked. Anyone make this bet in an attempt to fold off the utg? (who I thought to be the only one to hold a hand that beat my AA) I mean, it is definitely possible for me to have an AT combo hand, not to mention that even kings up would have him beat, too. Or is this just too wishful of an idea with a pot of that size. I dunno, I think I should have tried to win the hand by throwing a bet out there, even it seems spewy. Imo, it's far less spewy and far less a mistake to bet the river than it was to call the flop/turn. Everyone agree to that?

UTG tabled his AJ83 (for a flopped top two pair with a 2nd nut low draw). I managed to get a glance at my friends cards as he was getting ready to muck in disgust(A239 suited). Speaking of which, I was very surprised to see him raise this flop which might result in folding me and the other player. Anyone like this play? I did not. Anyway, the player behind me flashed me his cards which were 4567 (for a flopped straight draw).

So, yeah, the case 5 would've been nice for me. And I was saying to myself, "ya know, if an Ace hits the river, noone will probably hit the broadway and I can take high and perhaps even scoop with my set. NEWSFLASH TO SELF: All the Aces were GONE! I think they call this tilt. Coming up with reasons (which I refer to as "imaginary outs") to justify staying in the hand. I should've realized that my high hand was dead, my low draw was no good, and that a flop fold was indeed the correct play.