Final table floor decision

[RR]

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I took for granted that the cards were mixed into the muck and unidentifiable. I do not accept that a card becomes identifiable by being announced by a player or whispered to a floorperson too much chance of shenanigans in that scenario.

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ehh, what are the chances of someone's fabricated hand actually being in the muck at that point? I can't see someone taking a chance there and making something up. If he does, he's getting banned for sure, huh?

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If one goes this route the cards need to be written down, not whispered to the floorman. I have only done this one time and it was when two hands were mixed together.

[RR]

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2) Since there has been absolutely no action after his all-in I see no real harm in returning his entire bet.

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This is the correct answer. Any of you out there that wanted to take both his chips and his cards you forgot the rule that is listed at the very top of TD rules.

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Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision-making process.

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It would be grossly unfair to take this player's chips when he has no cards and there has been no following action so the preceeding players are not harmed in anyway.

[pig4bill]

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2) Since there has been absolutely no action after his all-in I see no real harm in returning his entire bet.

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It doesn't matter that's there's been no action after. He called two other all-in bets. You're possibly depriving those two players of his chips that they would have won.

Also, since it's a tournament, you're affecting all other players since seat 10 may have more chips than he would have had if he lost the hand.

[RR]

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You're possibly depriving those two players of his chips that they would have won.


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So what. How can anyone say that havign a dealer take in someone's bet and then taking his cards is fair. Player's are to win these cards on the strength of their cards, not on a mistake. It is unfair to the other players in the touranmetn to give these two a shot at money that has no cards to beat them. This is the same reason a disqualified palyer has their chips removed from play rather than blinded off.


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Also, since it's a tournament, you're affecting all other players since seat 10 may have more chips than he would have had if he lost the hand.

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And he has less than if the dealer had not taken his cards.

Another thing that is missed is an all-in player should "protected." This isnt' adressed specifially in most rules becasue NL was an after thougth when most rules were written, but the rules call for a player to be "protected" when it takes a major mistake to kill there hand. The written example is a stud player's up cards are consdiered protected. If I were to write a modern rule book I would add all-in player's as a protected class as everyone sees their chips in the center and htey have bet all their chips so they do not have a chip to protect their cards.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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It would be grossly unfair to take this player's chips when he has no cards and there has been no following action so the preceeding players are not harmed in anyway.

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Randy - I agree with the decision and your reasoning.

Let's say there is a "little bit" of following action e.g. one player folds. What do you think the decision should be then?

(pick better examples of a "little bit of action" if you want)

~ Rick

[MicroBob]

RR - With so few cards in the muck I still fail to see why they simply can't be retrieved. Shouldn't be hard at all to figure out which ones are his which I think is more in the 'best interest' of the game than just letting him have his bet back.

Also, how on earth did this happen?
Did he push his chips out and say, "all-in" and then the dealer snatched up his cards? Seems kind of weird.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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If one goes this route the cards need to be written down, not whispered to the floorman. I have only done this one time and it was when two hands were mixed together.

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I did this maybe five times in four years. Writing it down and making it clear that the hand is only valid on an effectively identical match is essential. Floor technique matters a lot here. There simply cannot be any appearance of impropriety and everyone needs to understand what is happening and why.

~ Rick

[pig4bill]

By being "fair" to the guy that lost his cards you're being "unfair" to the guys that were called. Maybe the "protect your hand" rule should be changed, but as of now it is the rule, right? When I go all in, I make a deliberate effort to keep my hand on my cards because of this rule.

Comparing it to stud up-cards being protected is silly. Who's going to muck the up cards and leave the rest?

[pig4bill]

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Also, how on earth did this happen?
Did he push his chips out and say, "all-in" and then the dealer snatched up his cards? Seems kind of weird.

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It was sort of weird in the satellite I was in as well. The guy was blabbing and waving his arms around that he didn't notice until just before the flop came down. This guy's end of the table was empty except for him. His chips and cards were sort of towards the center on every hand anyway. It could be that the dealer just saw cards surrounded by lots of empty green and reflex to scoop them kicked in. He didn't realize it either until the player mentioned it.

[lmcjaho]

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Also, how on earth did this happen?
Did he push his chips out and say, "all-in" and then the dealer snatched up his cards? Seems kind of weird.

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A friend of mine mucked an all-in players cards once which resulted in the guy losing on the bubble of a satellite-type payout structure (top 20 advance, just surviving into the top 20 is all that matters).

Apparently the guy had been folding the whole time my buddy was at the table by moving his cards about 1 inch to the right (he was in the 1-seat) and had even snapped off a peevish response along the lines of "if I wasn't folding they wouldn't be there" when my buddy told him the action was on him once earlier in the night. So apparently what happened on the hand in question was two other players had moved all in and the 1-seat moved his cards aside to push his chips into the middle of the table - well, since he had been folding in that exact manner all day my friend instinctively grabbed his cards and swept them into the muck...

The best part of the story is the guy didn't even notice until the turn (all action was on the flop) was out and the third burn card was down, at which point he starts shrieking "Where's my cards?!" - and my friend realizes what happened and calls for the Tourney Director... Who informs the gentleman that his cards are gone and he is SOL.

So maybe the guy in the OP had a similar history of folding by pushing his cards to the side, and then he did the same motion to make way for his chips and the dealer just reacted the way he had been "programmed" to by the guy's previous actions... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]