A9o in the SB: (Passive City)

[One Outer]

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Anyway, if you want him to improve your equity by raising, doesn't that assume that you think there's a substantial chance you're ahead even when our weak, non-aggressive villain raises?

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So, you're advocating...folding? Am I missing something? Aren't we more likely to be good heads up against villain than against the whole field?

Jeez, now that you mention it this is a tough spot. I hate this. Calling, donking and folding all sound wrong.

[mntndrew]

There's no way I'm going to fold the turn, as we're always drawing very live even when way behind.

I'm just saying that trying to get him to raise out draws isn't the course I'd take because I think that any draws that call two cold on the flop are calling two cold on the turn. We're basically talking about the open-ended 65 and players who are bad in a "call two cold on the flop with a backdoor flush draw and two overcards to the 7" way. I think these players will continue on more often than not even when the BB raises. On top of this, we're usually behind when he raises.

[One Outer]

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There's no way I'm going to fold the turn, as we're always drawing very live even when way behind.

I'm just saying that trying to get him to raise out draws isn't the course I'd take because I think that any draws that call two cold on the flop are calling two cold on the turn. We're basically talking about the open-ended 65 and players who are bad in a "call two cold on the flop with a backdoor flush draw and two overcards to the 7" way. I think these players will continue on more often than not even when the BB raises. On top of this, we're usually behind when he raises.

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You make an excellent point. And we know we're drawing, so if we get there their draws don't matter anymore. But then should we not call on the river given that we are the FOURTH freakin' person to put money in the pot when the heart gets there?

I find your ideas fascinating and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[DeuceKicker]

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Anyway, if you want him to improve your equity by raising, doesn't that assume that you think there's a substantial chance you're ahead even when our weak, non-aggressive villain raises?

[/ QUOTE ]No. Often his raise will increase your equity while increasing his more.

There are five players in the pot. If your equity is 25% and his is 35%, and his raise gets everyone else to fold, your equity may now be 40% while his has increased to 60%. Sometimes it's worth it even when you know you're behind.

However, that's theory. I don't think this particular hand is a good example because your implied odds of getting paid off by five players if you boat up trump your slight equity improvement if he raises.

Also, as fishyak enumerated, I think your chances of BB raising if you donk the turn are very very small. Put on a nice plaid skirt, hope the river is a non-heart King (or 9, obv.), and call down.

[bernie]

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I play it the same and expect to lose more often than not, but you're pretty much a slave to the pot size. Only spot I might fold is the flop.

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Pretty much.

b

[mntndrew]

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Often his raise will increase your equity while increasing his more.

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Right, I agree. In practice, though, I will almost never try to isolate myself out of position against a passive player on the turn. Perhaps there are situations to try this, but I don't believe I've ever come across one.

I'll spend extra bets when I think I could be behind when a bet comes from my right from a player over whom I feel I have good control, i.e., one who won't re-raise me and will likely give me a free card. I'll only rarely try to isolate myself out of position as proposed here, mainly when I feel that I have a hand I wouldn't mind showing down like a medium pair and I feel that the player to my left is overly aggressive and will isolate himself with just overcards.

Anyway, I can't come up with three hands that should play like this, but I'm not good enough to lay down the river. I'd almost expect to see BB show up with a flopped set for a boat, someone else with a weak ace, and someone who doesn't know how to play poker with KK or JJ.

[Frond]

Almost forgot, I was pleasantly surprised when the BB tabled A5o and I took it down when my 9 played [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. It was an interesting hand for sure.

PS. On a PM to him, Frickin Bernie nailed the BB's holding down. Scary!

Pooh Bah post to follow(even though I am still a realtively new to the game)