Would you ever fold this (razz)?

[DJ Sensei]

with these stacks i cant imagine ever folding the best hand on 3rd. especially since shortstacks generally = donkeys

[Andy B]

When short-stacked, even loose-passive players will some times say, "aww, screw it," and get it all-in with less-than-premium hands. Perhaps you could contrive some tournament scenario where you'd fold, but seriously, why would you even think about mucking in a cash game?

[Wetdog]

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When short-stacked, even loose-passive players will some times say, "aww, screw it," and get it all-in with less-than-premium hands. Perhaps you could contrive some tournament scenario where you'd fold, but seriously, why would you even think about mucking in a cash game?

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Just the opposite in a tourney, Andy. I'm about getting all I can get there and pay the devil. In a cash game, no wayI'm folding without a good reason.

[templar999]

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In the Full Tilt strategy guide, Huck Seed seems to indicate that he might fold a 3-card wheel hand on 3rd street in a tourney situation

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Which prompted Ted Forrest to say he could make money playing Huck's discards. I'm with Ted.

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I'm with Ted too and I think Seed is generally both arrogant and intellectually dishonest when it comes to discussing poker.

Patty

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1. Have you read the book? If so, do you understand the context in which he might fold a 3 card wheel?

2. The guy has a ME championship, 2 razz bracelets. He can be as arrogant as he wants and I'd still listen to what he has to say about razz. Have you had any personal interaction on which to base this?

3. How has he been intellectually dishonest about poker? He's never discussed in public anything poker with the exception of that razz chapter.

If you're just flaming, that's fine. I'm just curious to hear what prompted these statements.

[Andy B]

Sorry, maybe I should have used two paragraphs. I was saying that there is some chance that the loose-passive players didn't have monster hands. Separately, you might be able to come up with a scenario where you'd fold a reasonably live three-card bike in a tournament, but that would be pretty rare.

[SGspecial]

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Assuming these stack sizes, there's no way you get away from this hand, so I voted "all in baby"...

In the Full Tilt strategy guide, Huck Seed seems to indicate that he might fold a 3-card wheel hand on 3rd street in a tourney situation (although I assume that if the stacks were similar size to this example, he'd probably be comfortable playing the hand).

The analogy to folding Aces preflop isn't really that applicable. Aces are at least a 77-23 favorite over any other single hand but Aces, and you don't even particularly mind playing against the other two Aces because about 98% of the time you split the pot. In this hand, Hero would usually be very lucky to have even 40% equity in a 3-way pot.

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That's exactly why I posted this HH since I just read the FTP donkament guide's razz chapter where Huck says that. He has a pretty good point (even if it is pretty nitty) that you want to keep your variance down IF you're at a table where the other players are normally playing tight and letting you steal the antes a lot. If everyone is gambooling it up, I don't see him folding it and neither would I. I agree with him that certain spots in a tourney I'd CONSIDER laying it down, even with at least 40% equity in this 3-way pot (if the villains aren't crazy LAGs, which they weren't) but it would have to be approaching the bubble or FT bubble or something since I have them covered by a lot.

Cash game = all in baby!

[SuitedBaby]

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1. Have you read the book? If so, do you understand the context in which he might fold a 3 card wheel?

2. The guy has a ME championship, 2 razz bracelets. He can be as arrogant as he wants and I'd still listen to what he has to say about razz. Have you had any personal interaction on which to base this?

3. How has he been intellectually dishonest about poker? He's never discussed in public anything poker with the exception of that razz chapter.

If you're just flaming, that's fine.

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1. I have read and own the book. I understand the situation he describes and his reasoning. I think his statement is a little like people talking about folding kings or even aces preflop. A little like that. A little like the talking not the folding. It gets done occasionally, sometimes even correctly, but there is more talk about it than actual practice even when it ought to happen, and even among the elite.

2. He has every right to be arrogant. Arrogance may even be a key component to achieving what he has done. I believe he fulfills that component. I also believe he could give very good advice on poker. I have had no specific personal interaction with him other than playing at the same tournament table.

3. I think in view of the size and context of the Razz chapter he did with Ted Forrest his contribution was less than forthright in terms of the expected audience. There are a lot of excellent poker professionals that are not telling much and for good reasons. However, the poker boom has changed the economic balance in poker. Many still aren't telling much but selling information anyway since it is so lucrative now. Huck isn't selling much or telling much but his name is on it.

However, my comments on his intellectual dishonesty stem mainly from his actions at the table. He has made comments on the play of others, accurately quoting outs, etc. that seemed designed to put other players in a bad light while it was clear in the overall circumstance their play was not incorrect and neither was Huck's, just the results were bad for Huck. Others have related similar stories. I suppose world champions should not be held to a greater standard when it comes to table talk BS but their comments do tend to carry more weight. Also they should know better. For those reasons I just find it more annoying and less honest.


I've never exactly understood the word "flaming". If you mean am I hassling Huck without real good reason, maybe so. I didn't mean to upset anyone. I stated my opinion and now the reasons.

Patty

[templar999]

Patty,

Thanks for the clarification. I see now where you're coming from.