TPTK facing donk bet on turn when flush card hits

[Lunkan]

I do raise most of the time here with this hand. Sometimes I limp (and that is what SSHE advices for tight games so it can't be that wrong?).

[Smoke em']

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I don't understand why everyone is so sure raising pf is better than limping. Doesn't that depend on the table? I think raising and limping are very close plays.

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I think it's important to raise this preflop because you want to minimize the number of players in the hand to maximize the chances of winning with top pair, to try to isolate the bad players who cold call preflop raises with crap, and to fold some slightly worse hands that you really don't want to be playing against.

For example, KQ
Hand 1: 58.9022 % 58.67% 00.24% { AcJs }
Hand 2: 41.0978 % 40.86% 00.24% { KQs, KQo }

I don't want your KQ against my AJ, I'm only a slight favorite and KQ might actually be right to call preflop even if they knew you had AJ.

Raising this encourages your opponents to make a mistake, whether it be cold calling or folding a hand that should call.

[jrz1972]

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I don't understand why everyone is so sure raising pf is better than limping. Doesn't that depend on the table? I think raising and limping are very close plays.

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This topic comes up all the time.

Most veterans are raising this, and some would argue that folding is preferable to limping. The basic idea is that AJo is a "top pair" hand that wins mainly by pairing up on the flop. Those sorts of hands don't do well in multiway pots, but open-limping encourages multiway action. Rather, it's better to raise and to play against as few opponents as possible.

If the table is so loose that people are routinely coldcalling with trash, then you can raise UTG for value.

That said, you're right that it's not that big a mistake.

[knockonwood]

I actually didn't really think about why I said 'raise AJ PF' in much depth. I think are lot of posters may be bored in between hands and see someone limping AJ, and are like 'ahhh... heres a chance to post, raise AJ PF, standard..' Your right, it depends on the table.

[Sushiglutton]

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I don't understand why everyone is so sure raising pf is better than limping. Doesn't that depend on the table? I think raising and limping are very close plays.

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This topic comes up all the time.

Most veterans are raising this, and some would argue that folding is preferable to limping. The basic idea is that AJo is a "top pair" hand that wins mainly by pairing up on the flop. Those sorts of hands don't do well in multiway pots, but open-limping encourages multiway action. Rather, it's better to raise and to play against as few opponents as possible.

If the table is so loose that people are routinely coldcalling with trash, then you can raise UTG for value.

That said, you're right that it's not that big a mistake.

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I understand these arguments. On the other hand most books I've read (SSHE'm, middle limit hold'em (or folding)) recomend limping. I think they must have som reason for this. Here are a few arguments which I made up for now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]:

1)If u raise u will only face better hands. By calling u let smaller Aces or J's (hands u dominate) come in which u don't mind.

2) Raising gives a tough player a better chance to isolate u. Being isolated with AJo OOP is not pleasent. It's easy to make a misstakes: calling down with few outs, or folding the best hand.

3) If there are two raises behind u, u can get out if u limp.


That's all for now. Perhaps I shouldn't hijack a post like this [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. Hope OP don't mind.

[Lunkan]

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That's all for now. Perhaps I shouldn't hijack a post like this [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. Hope OP don't mind.

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He doesn't [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I would like to see more discussion on this.

[jrz1972]

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1)If u raise u will only face better hands. By calling u let smaller Aces or J's (hands u dominate) come in which u don't mind.

2) Raising gives a tough player a better chance to isolate u. Being isolated with AJo OOP is not pleasent. It's easy to make a misstakes: calling down with few outs, or folding the best hand.

3) If there are two raises behind u, u can get out if u limp.

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1. This is true. Then again, you also let little pairs in for cheap, and you rather that they fold.

2. How big a deal is it if somebody 3-bets you? Yeah, I know it feels bad when that happens, but really it's only cost you 1 sb (your pfr) because presumably the 3-bettor was raising anyway if you had limped. And when you get 3-bet, at least you know you're up against a big hand and you know to proceed with extreme caution. When 2+2ers recommend open-raising AJo in EP, we assume you know better than to get into a raising war with a 3-bettor when you flop top pair.

This assumes that the 3-bet is a legitimate 3-bet and that the reraiser isn't just screwing around. But either way is fine. If somebody is consistently "iso-raising" my UTG raises, he's going to be in for a very long day considering that AJo is pretty much at the very bottom of my range (except for KQo and KJs).

3. True, but how often does this happen? And it's not like you can't get away from this if you raise and it's capped back to you.

[Sushiglutton]

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1)If u raise u will only face better hands. By calling u let smaller Aces or J's (hands u dominate) come in which u don't mind.

2) Raising gives a tough player a better chance to isolate u. Being isolated with AJo OOP is not pleasent. It's easy to make a misstakes: calling down with few outs, or folding the best hand.

3) If there are two raises behind u, u can get out if u limp.

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1. This is true. Then again, you also let little pairs in for cheap, and you rather that they fold.

2. How big a deal is it if somebody 3-bets you? Yeah, I know it feels bad when that happens, but really it's only cost you 1 sb (your pfr) because presumably the 3-bettor was raising anyway if you had limped. And when you get 3-bet, at least you know you're up against a big hand and you know to proceed with extreme caution. When 2+2ers recommend open-raising AJo in EP, we assume you know better than to get into a raising war with a 3-bettor when you flop top pair.

This assumes that the 3-bet is a legitimate 3-bet and that the reraiser isn't just screwing around. But either way is fine. If somebody is consistently "iso-raising" my UTG raises, he's going to be in for a very long day considering that AJo is pretty much at the very bottom of my range (except for KQo and KJs).

3. True, but how often does this happen? And it's not like you can't get away from this if you raise and it's capped back to you.

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Ok, u win this battle, but I'm not giving up on the war Mwahahahahah [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]! I really don't have anything more clever to say. Thnx jrz.

[22pajo]

Tough spot. Hard to know what SB is donk betting here. I re raise the turn at a minimum. If sb 3 bets i'm done with it. MP2 has to be padding the pot.

[Lunkan]

Villain had J9.