UTG standards...with warm legs...

[pegboy]

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OK so I guess me opening JTs and QTs sometimes UTG is no good...

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JTs is down at 57.51% heads-up against the deck. Way overated shorthanded.

QTs is 59.44%.

[sethypooh21]

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OK so I guess me opening JTs and QTs sometimes UTG is no good...

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JTs is down at 57.51% heads-up against the deck. Way overated shorthanded.

QTs is 59.44%.

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Looking at 'hot and cold' equity as the end all be all in this situation is a pretty severe conceptual error. Even though KTo is a 'better' hand that JTs, I'd much rather have the latter because it plays much cleaner post flop. To put it another way, you probably drag more pots with KTo, but the pots you win with JTs will tend to be larger, and by an amount large enough to make up the difference comfortably.

[Martina]

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BTW I almost never play A9o utg, I fold K9s and 55's utg most of the time also. For those who think thats a big deal, I laugh, cuz it doesnt matter.

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This is the most important takeaway from this thread - these hands are fractions of a BB + or - EV either way. I would say that these hands do tend to be pretty high variance, so if tilt is an issue, probably best to dump em.

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I would also like to add that I would certainly raise with all those borderline hands If the possibility of winning the blinds was higher than normal. However since I choose not to play in those type of games, I generally dont raise with those hands Ive mentioned.

[pegboy]

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OK so I guess me opening JTs and QTs sometimes UTG is no good...

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JTs is down at 57.51% heads-up against the deck. Way overated shorthanded.

QTs is 59.44%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at 'hot and cold' equity as the end all be all in this situation is a pretty severe conceptual error. Even though KTo is a 'better' hand that JTs, I'd much rather have the latter because it plays much cleaner post flop. To put it another way, you probably drag more pots with KTo, but the pots you win with JTs will tend to be larger, and by an amount large enough to make up the difference comfortably.

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There is admittedly fault in taking the math too far, or in using the math exclusively. There is also fault in assuming that the pot will be heads-up as KT drops in value 3-way and JTs surpasses it.

I'm not sure as to the severity of misconception based on the cleanliness of play? May that not be subjective bias based on one's playing style? The fact remains that if we play the 2 hands against each other repeatedly, heads-up, KT will eventually get all the money because it is stronger.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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I would also like to add that I would certainly raise with all those borderline hands If the possibility of winning the blinds was higher than normal. However since I choose not to play in those type of games, I generally dont raise with those hands Ive mentioned.

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Oops, that was my post. Didnt realize that name was logged in.

[jba]

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He always mucks KTo in the HJ in the vids I have seen.

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I can't remember the last time I mucked KTo in the HJ or KJo UTG. I might start mucking KTo if 2 players better than me are doing it.

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I gave up on KJo/utg and KTo/hj a while ago. I used to advocate raising this hands in those spots. Now I fold them with no reads becuz I havent been successful with those hands. Im sure my sample size is still inadequate but thats what Im doing now. KJo utg and KTo hj are now read based plays for me. They are no longer defaults.

BTW I almost never play A9o utg, I fold K9s and 55's utg most of the time also. For those who think thats a big deal, I laugh, cuz it doesnt matter.

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the A9o K9s 55 type hands are about where I draw the line too. usually I muck them online and play them live because I dont think it matters a ton either way, live players suck and dont 3bet me nearly as much as they should, and I get really bored playing live. I think I open everything else on your list.

[sethypooh21]

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OK so I guess me opening JTs and QTs sometimes UTG is no good...

[/ QUOTE ]

JTs is down at 57.51% heads-up against the deck. Way overated shorthanded.

QTs is 59.44%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at 'hot and cold' equity as the end all be all in this situation is a pretty severe conceptual error. Even though KTo is a 'better' hand that JTs, I'd much rather have the latter because it plays much cleaner post flop. To put it another way, you probably drag more pots with KTo, but the pots you win with JTs will tend to be larger, and by an amount large enough to make up the difference comfortably.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is admittedly fault in taking the math too far, or in using the math exclusively. There is also fault in assuming that the pot will be heads-up as KT drops in value 3-way and JTs surpasses it.

I'm not sure as to the severity of misconception based on the cleanliness of play? May that not be subjective bias based on one's playing style? The fact remains that if we play the 2 hands against each other repeatedly, heads-up, KT will eventually get all the money because it is stronger.

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Comparing KTo directly to JTs is not really fair because of domination - obviously it's going to be very difficult for JTs to make up the preflop -EQ HU vs. KTo postflop.

In the actual play of hands, there are a lot more flops and especially turns that you can play really aggressively with JTs - similarly, you are somewhat less likely to make second best hands that 'have' to pay off. The playability of the suited+connectedness of JTs far outweighs the (very limited) big card strength of KTo.

You make your money on the BB streets, and JTs makes more strongly betable hands, whereas when you catch a piece of the flop with KTo, you're not especially sanguine about getting lots of action. This is something of a NL concept that translates somewhat to 6-max because the size of pots PF tend to be relatively small compared to the ending pots if the hand gets to SD.

[sebastien]

i try to play more hands because i m 26/18(something like that).
And when i see some i fold KJo utg or KTo mdp i don't understand WTF are you 30/20 and play range preflop like that??

[yourface]

dont try and bring up your vpip/pfr by opening a wider range from early position

the way to do it is stealing more from LP and defending your blinds more

[StellarWind]

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Do you think hands like A9o are profitable in a vacuum, or do you think the "shania" makes it profitable?

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A9o UTG has negative Shania. To balance your UTG play you need hands that don't work with ace-high flops.