WA/WB.....lets get to the bottom of this

[jlocdog]

It seems as though their is some confusion on this board as to what WA/WB means in a conceptual matter. Please offer your wisdom on what is meant when this is used as well as how it applies to playing a given hand. Examples are fine but I would like to hear some discussion on why this concept is important, when is it most prevelant, and if the river is always WA/WB regardless of action preluding it.

Mods, I do realize this is more of a poker theory question but I feel a good discussion can be generated here in its application towards many of the hands posted in this forum. Not to mention making sure the masses here are on the same page when using it in their posts and no confusion ensues.

[tarheeljks]

it may help to post the point of contention

[FishSticks]

I think technically speaking the river is indeed always WA/WB. You beat a portion of his range, and you lose to a portion of his range. So, on the river, you are either WAY ahead or WAY behind. It's not really a river concept though.

A WA/WB example would be you raise AT preflop and get called. The flop is A52 rainbow. You probably have the best hand right now, and it's very unlikely that he's going to outdraw you with a 2 outter to a set, 3 outter to two pair on a worse ace, etc. - and there are no real straight or flush draws here to worry about. If you don't have the best hand you're behind AJ/AQ or a set, you stand very little chance of catching up yourself. So, this spot is a typical WA/WB situation.

In a WA/WB situation, I generally want to practice some pot control. If all the money goes in, I'm generally on the way behind side of the spectrum with this hand. If I give away free cards, there is little risk since he's probably drawing to only a couple outs, if any. Depending on position/stats/reads and whatever I'm generally looking to get like 1 or 2 streets of value somehow, and if I get raised anywhere I really don't like it.

Does anyone know it to mean something else?

[jlocdog]

Actually the point of this thread is for people to supply examples of WA/WB situations as well as explain why they are so. Also I would like to know if all rivers are WA/WB because no more action can take place. And is the purpose of the concept to view hands in such a way. Do we apply this concept to equity we already have in a given pot or to the possible bet that may or may not ensue...

Please feel free to add anything else in regards to this subject that I may be missing or overlooking.

[jlocdog]

Bump for the morning crowd. Please help me clear up my misunderstanding here.....

[Noam Chomsky]

Applying this concept to the river is silly and will only serve to confuse the issue more as it is directly related to your or your opponents odds to improve to a better hand.

In other words, on the river you're either ahead or behind, applying a degree to which you're ahead or behind makes no sense and serves no value.

[Unknown Soldier]

did you not think my explanation was clear? i promise you it's what we mean by it. I'll bet on it.

[Jay Riall]

WA/WB most definitely does not apply to the river. You are either behind or ahead of his exact hand or you have a specific pot equity vs his range of hands.

[Michaelson]

Fishstick's post really should have ended this thread.

Hero raises AA on the button. Gets called by big blind. Flop comes QQ2. check/bet/call. Turn is a 7 completing the rainbow. BB checks.

This is a way ahead or way behind spot. You have best two pair and there are no draws. Either villain has a Q or a boat, in which case you have two outs, or villain is drawing to at most 2 outs himself. One of you has enormous equity in the pot, but you're not sure who. As such, against a lot of villains it is prudent to check behind on the turn. There's little to fear by giving a free card, and if you bet and are called/raised you're likely in bad shape. So instead of hammering the pot to price out draws or extract value, it's often best to check and wait for the river to decide whether to/how to extract value.

[Dan Bitel]

An example of WA/WB:

We raise KK preflop, 1 caller. Flop comes A72r. We are now way ahead of hands we beat and way behind hands that beat us. NOTE: even if we have exactly 50% equity vs his range of hands, this is still a classic WA/WB spot

Lets say we now raise KdKx preflop and again 1 caller. Flop is Td 6d 2d. This is NOT WA/WB (even though we might have 70% equity vs his range):

If he has AdXd, we're WB
If he has 66, we're SB
If he has Ad3c, we're SA
If he has QdQx, we're WA

So this hand is NOT WA/WB