50/100 KK from BB - crappy board, two callers

[Dale Dough]

6 max, effective stacks 10k for me, Villain 1 covers, Villain 2 has like 8k. Villain 1 is 30/16, villain 2 35/18 ish, both only a few 100 hands. I don't usually play 50/100, which is probably why I over analyze this spot that doesn't come up very often. I am in the game because the action at lower stakes was dryer than usual, and I think I saw Villain 2 building his stack up from 5k. No specific history.

Villain 1 opens for 333 from the hijack, Villain 2 calls on the button, I make it 1500 from the BB with KK. Both call.

Flop QJT rainbow
Pot ~4500

Checked through. Mistake?

Turn 4

I bet 3k, both call.

River J

I check-fold to V1 getting like 3.5 to 1 on my last 5500. Yuck.


At my usual stakes I probably go broke here and then think 'hm I probably should have played that differently'.

Can I expect AQ to pay off a flop bet threeway? I figured no, so I was prolly gonna cc a small bet, cf a large bet by Villain 1. If it goes check, check, V2 bets, the plan is probably push.

I'm not too thrilled my turn bet(fold) either; if I was gonna do that I probably should have done it on the flop; at least I could have called the shove.

[praios]

just bet flop and if called shove turn

[adanthar]

anyone wanna just jam the turn as played?

[Acaccini]

bet flop, jam turn. i like that line.

[HeheOkok]

[ QUOTE ]
anyone wanna just jam the turn as played?

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely not. You're basically turning your hand into a semibluff with 10 outs (at best) with just one card to come and you're getting called by all sets and most twopairs.
I actually like HEROs line. It's very unlikely your hand is good on the turn when you are called by both villains. And the river certainly didn't help.
If you're gonna play it differently, I think it's on the flop. Bet/call is obviously a decent line since you can't be in that bad shape unless you're up against AK.

Edit: I think you really need to bet/call this one. With AA, I'd probably prefer your line.

[Dale Dough]

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Board: Qh Jd Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 29.176% 24.99% 04.18% 49731 8326.50 { KK }
Hand 1: 70.824% 66.64% 04.18% 132606 8326.50 { TT+, AKs, KQs, QJs, JTs, 98s, AKo }
</pre><hr />

And that's probably being generous wrt AK / everything else ratio.

It's 43% if I include AQ, 35% if only AQs. So it really hinges on that whether a betcall is worth it.

With the third guy in, my equity drops to 20% if he has the same range minus QQ and AK. So either way, if I get played with I can count on 6k (I will ignore that he only had 8).

That means both players have to fold about 50% of the time, which I think is unrealistic.. unless of course they play AQ.




EDIT I'm dumb. I forgot that I already put in 1500. Yeah def bet/call flop then, worst case scenario I'm putting 2500 against 4500, and as a bonus the third guy might play a bunch of crap hands.


okok, why do you like the turn bet? I feel a set should bet that flop, but in Villain 1's shoes, I'd check behind AK like almost every time. In fact, the way the hand played out I think that's what he had. Worst case scen you lose further action, really, since I should have bet a set also.

Since I would also check AK on that flop, I don't think AQ has any more reason to call the turn than the flop.

EDIT2: not only that, I forgot the third guy's 1500, too. OK I give up, even easier bet/call.

[HeheOkok]

[ QUOTE ]
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Board: Qh Jd Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 29.176% 24.99% 04.18% 49731 8326.50 { KK }
Hand 1: 70.824% 66.64% 04.18% 132606 8326.50 { TT+, AKs, KQs, QJs, JTs, 98s, AKo }
</pre><hr />

And that's probably being generous wrt AK / everything else ratio.

It's 43% if I include AQ, 35% if only AQs. So it really hinges on that whether a betcall is worth it.

With the third guy in, my equity drops to 20% if he has the same range minus QQ and AK. So either way, if I get played with I can count on 6k (I will ignore that he only had 8).

That means both players have to fold about 50% of the time, which I think is unrealistic.. unless of course they play AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it really that unrealistic to think that they would fold &gt;50% with both opponents having over 30% vp$ip?
If you have a somewhat solid image, this is a really dangerous looking board for them. It's pretty likely that you have AK and that you can use a flop bet to actually scare away better hands.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone wanna just jam the turn as played?

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely not. You're basically turning your hand into a semibluff with 10 outs (at best) with just one card to come and you're getting called by all sets and most twopairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

after they check the flop, you have the best hand on the turn the large majority of the time

[Jman28]

I think anything but a bet-call on the flop is pretty bad.

Think about the hand range that shoves over or at least calls a flop bet from you, and then think about how much of that range checks behind (mostly the part you beat) and takes a free card. c/c or c/r is wayyyyyyyy worse than bet, and your hand is too strong to c/f to one bet.

[ActionJeff]

[ QUOTE ]
I think anything but a bet-call on the flop is pretty bad.

Think about the hand range that shoves over or at least calls a flop bet from you, and then think about how much of that range checks behind (mostly the part you beat) and takes a free card. c/c or c/r is wayyyyyyyy worse than bet, and your hand is too strong to c/f to one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? I actually think hes extremely vulnerable here, and against the type of villains who call 1500 cold pf multiway, hero might want to reevaluate the likeliness of one of them making an aggresive move when he c-bets the flop . I think if the circumstances are right, bet/fold might be better than bet/call, which is why I don't mind the check. As played I think turn and river are good

would be interested in more input on this