Nolan Dallas confiscated flag (5k chip)

[Dan Druff]

I am still shocked that people like Xhad are taking MGM's side and insisting that they're simply enforcing NV gaming laws. MGM is only interested in "enforcing" this statute because they want to confiscate big chips. Notice that they don't give you the third degree when cashing a single $100 chip. Why are they selectively enforcing the law/rule for bigger chips? Hint: It's not becuase of an intense fear of theft/counterfeiting.

The burden is not on the player to prove that he was a customer of the gaming establishment. The burden is on the casino. If you say that you played there "a few months ago" -- or even longer, it is up to them to prove that you didn't. You are not required to have your play tracked, nor is there any law on the books prohibiting you from taking your own casino chips home and redeeming them later.

Coming back with the excuse, "Well, if they don't do it this way, there's no way they can enforce the law" is a cop-out. That isn't the player's problem. Many laws on the books -- both gambling and non-gambling -- are virtually unenforceable due to loopholes and/or inability to prove they have been broken.

[Dan Druff]

And some of you are overconfident regarding Bellagio 5k flags.

I have gotten heat when trying to cash in those chips at times. Now I avoid them like the plague and stick to 1k and below.

[Xhad]

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I am still shocked that people like Xhad are taking MGM's side and insisting that they're simply enforcing NV gaming laws

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Read my posts again. I never took a "side", I merely pointed out that I think a lot of the particular arguments are at best shaky and at worst manipulative.

[yingyang0]

[ QUOTE ]

The burden is not on the player to prove that he was a customer of the gaming establishment. The burden is on the casino. If you say that you played there "a few months ago" -- or even longer, it is up to them to prove that you didn't. You are not required to have your play tracked, nor is there any law on the books prohibiting you from taking your own casino chips home and redeeming them later.


[/ QUOTE ]
Man there are a lot of people on this forum that think they are lawyers.
First off, Ignorantia legis neminem excusat. Casinos don't need to have signs say the law.

Second, the burden is <u>not[/n] on the casino. I don't know what law school you went to but you need to go back. If the patron wants to get his money back and the casino refuses, the patron would have to sue. The burden is on the plaintiff , patron, in general and to show he gambled at that establishment in order to rebut the casino's claim that he didn't.

To the other people claiming you can use chips to pay debts. You can't, and anyone that says otherwise doesn't know the law. You can use chips to tip a waiter/waitress, but the right to tip using casino chips limited to within the gambling establishment. All debts/bills must be paid in US currency period! Other casinos are authorized to honor casinos chips, but again only for gambling purposes.

[iron81]

For those of you who TL;DR the regulations posted above, basically every one of them is broken every day in Vegas, both by Casinos and players.

[yingyang0]

[ QUOTE ]
For those of you who TL;DR the regulations posted above, basically every one of them is broken every day in Vegas, both by Casinos and players.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, but last time I checked the "everyone else is doing it" defense doesn't work. It didn't work when you were a kid, it doesn't work for speeding tickets, and it certainly doesn't work for felonies.

[shaniac]

[ QUOTE ]
And some of you are overconfident regarding Bellagio 5k flags.

I have gotten heat when trying to cash in those chips at times. Now I avoid them like the plague and stick to 1k and below.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true...Bellagio flags are theoretically ok for casually transferring debt among poker players or transporting large amounts of money, but you can't easily redeem them for cash at the cage without going through a whole process, sometimes even if you have action they tracked. In fact, the Bellagio main cage (might be different in the poker room or Bacc pit) wants an explanation for every cashout over 3K in my experience. Dan Druff is right, and it's total BS.

[Dan Druff]

[ QUOTE ]
The burden is <u>not</u> on the casino. I don't know what law school you went to but you need to go back. If the patron wants to get his money back and the casino refuses, the patron would have to sue. The burden is on the plaintiff , patron, in general and to show he gambled at that establishment in order to rebut the casino's claim that he didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

The burden is on the casino.

Go read the Nevada state lawbooks from cover to cover, and you will find no requirement that an individual needs to keep evidence that he played in order to cash out.

The law simply states that you must have won/bought the casino chips from the casino itself. That's it. There is no timing issue or a requirement to keep sufficient data in order to prove exactly what time and date you were there.

According to the way the law is written, simply walking into the casino and claiming you played "a few months ago" should be enough to cash out. No court in Nevada would uphold confiscation of chips under these circumstances.

Now, could the casino simply confiscate your chips anyway, thereby requiring you to sue them? Yes, they could. But they could also take you in the back room and beat you for no reason at all. What the casinos can do and what they are legally allowed to do are two different things.

This discussion was about the legality of requiring players to prove where their chips came from. It's also about the morality of the whole thing -- whether the casinos are doing it to protect themselves/enforce the law or simply to deny cashing out large sums of money. I think it's pretty clear that their reason behind this is the latter.

Unfortunately Mr. Dalla dropped the ball and admitted the chip wasn't his. That changes everything, but under no circumstances should the chip end up property of MGM. If it's not determined to be his, it should be returned to its "rightful" owner.

[Poker Clif]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a perfect example of how having RFID in large denomination chips could greatly benefit casino patrons.

Imagine this alternate scenario:

Man obtains 5k chip from table game.

Casino knows through the RFID system who has taken ownership of the chip.

Casino then shows that chip left RFID range on such a date.

Second person shows up at Casino with RFID chip tryin to cash it.

Casino contacts person who left with it to find out if the chip was "given" to person two or if it was obtained through some "less than legal" means IE stolen.

If it was stolen it gets returned, if it was given as payment for a debt they cash the chip.

If they cannot establish a chain of possession then it is confiscated.

Simple?

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RFID makes me nervous.

I have never understood why blackjack players can be barred for "card counting", i.e,, being good players.

I have never been in a casino, only played online and in local NLHE tournaments. But I'm not thrilled with the idea of someone checking my win rate. Poker is not just about playing well, it's about win rate, table selection, looking for "fish", etc.

Easy quanitifcation of win rates could cause casinos to steer people toward certain tables for various reasons--to try to get them in bigger games, to keep them from beating up on regulars, etc.

Sound farfetched? Remember the deadly sin of blackjack card counters is (gasp!) playing well.

Should I ever play in a casino, I don't want to be tracked, and since I'm old enough to have a grandchild, I should never be asked for ID (unless everyone is). I should be able to walk in off the street and just play, period.

[Xhad]

Clif: Do you really not recognize the difference between the casino donating money to good players, and the casino letting players pass money amongst themselves?

If card counters couldn't be barred then the casinos would probably just stop offering blackjack games where cardcounting works. Giving away money isn't much of a business plan.