X-post: STOP SAYING you are raising or betting for information!

[gobboboy]

You are either valuebetting or you're bluffing. You can bluff with marginal hands to avoid being bluffed out and you can valuebet but fold to a raise, but for the love of god, betting for information makes NO LOGICAL SENSE. If you're out of position and you bet or check, your opponent is going to have to make some sort of action no matter what, so THAT is where you get your information from. If you're ahead of your opponent's range and think their calling range is beat by your hand, then BET FOR VALUE. If not, then check or bet to bluff them out.

EVERY BET you make should have a purpose. Either to get value out of a strong hand or bluff your opponent off a stronger hand. KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH WITH EACH BET YOU MAKE BEFORE YOU MAKE IT.

Example:

Stacks of 10k, blinds 50/100. I make it 300 from UTG 9 handed, you call OTB with 99. Flop Q76. I bet 450. You decide to raise. Why?

1) A raise for value does not accomplish what you think unless we're thinking on the hundredth level. I'm folding all hands worse than yours and calling with a lot of better ones.

2) A bluff raise wouldn't be too bad, since I'm folding most hands worse than AQ or 98, but if I call or raise your hand is pretty much garbage.

SO MANY PEOPLE decide to put in a raise on this flop 'for information' to see if their hand is good. WHY? If he folds, whoopee, you might have had the best hand. If he calls, you don't. That's called BLUFFING. You might as well have any two cards in this spot if you are attempting to bluff. A lot of people might say "Yeah but sometimes you improve/get called by worse!" Yeah but sometimes you are retarded and manage to put in more money later against a hand that obviously has you beat too. If you make it 1600 on the flop, you just put in enough chips to call the flop AND turn if you really think I'm FOS, and then I would give you a lot more chances to really look at my bet sizing and one more card to come off before you decide if I actually have a hand.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IF YOU WANT ME TO KEEP MY SANITY STOP MAKING RETARDED BLUFFS WITHOUT REALIZE YOU ARE DOING SO.

[cheburashka]

Hi Gobbo,

We're obviously delighted to have you visit us on small stakes, and we'd hate to cause you to lose your sanity. So I hardly dare ask...

Is protecting a hand not also a good reason to bet or raise? Suppose in the example you give, I notice that you C-Bet almost all the time. I think it unlikely you have a Q, but quite possible that you have two overs or 98 (or a FD, if the flop is not a rainbow). So I raise to take the pot now and deny you good odds to draw. No good?

Alternatively, with the same cards but position reversed, could I not bet this flop thinking it likely I have the best hand now, but not wanting to deal with a turn if another over shows up?

Thanks!

[jhill3535]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Gobbo,

We're obviously delighted to have you visit us on small stakes, and we'd hate to cause you to lose your sanity. So I hardly dare ask...

Is protecting a hand not also a good reason to bet or raise? Suppose in the example you give, I notice that you C-Bet almost all the time. I think it unlikely you have a Q, but quite possible that you have two overs or 98 (or a FD, if the flop is not a rainbow). So I raise to take the pot now and deny you good odds to draw. No good?

Alternatively, with the same cards but position reversed, could I not bet this flop thinking it likely I have the best hand now, but not wanting to deal with a turn if another over shows up?

Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

You basically just gave the definition of betting for value.

[Pokerfarian]

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose in the example you give, I notice that you C-Bet almost all the time. I think it unlikely you have a Q, but quite possible that you have two overs or 98 (or a FD, if the flop is not a rainbow). So I raise to take the pot now and deny you good odds to draw. No good?

[/ QUOTE ]
Paraphrasing: I notice you're cbetting you're entire range & a big enough majority folds to my raise for it to be +EV...like OP said if you can raise 99 here you can raise ATC

[cheburashka]

Ah. I thought betting for value was getting a worse hand to call or a better hand to fold, while protecting your hand was getting a hand to fold that is worse now but that may get better with another card (or making the worse hand pay too much to draw).

[cheburashka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Suppose in the example you give, I notice that you C-Bet almost all the time. I think it unlikely you have a Q, but quite possible that you have two overs or 98 (or a FD, if the flop is not a rainbow). So I raise to take the pot now and deny you good odds to draw. No good?

[/ QUOTE ]
Paraphrasing: I notice you're cbetting you're entire range & a big enough majority folds to my raise for it to be +EV...like OP said if you can raise 99 here you can raise ATC

[/ QUOTE ]

Guys, give a fish a break. I have one poster tell me that my bet motivation is the definition of a value bet, and another tell me that it is the same as a bluff.

[gobboboy]

If you believe that your opponent will call you with a flush draw on the flop, then yes, a bet is indeed valuebetting when you know his hand but you are still bluffing. You just may be bluffing with the best hand.

One important thing to remember is that just because there's a flush draw out there does not mean you have to bet to 'protect' against it. People don't flop flush draws every time there's a two flush out there, and letting one card come off is not that bad. If you're in position on the Q76 flop with two hearts and I check to you, you can either bluff to get me to fold a hand like JJ-TT or a hand with significant equity against you like AJ or T8 or you can check behind because you feel the hands you're trying to bluff out are too small as a part of my range and you're getting called when behind too often.

I understand that this is a pretty difficult area for some people because there are lots of levels and a lot of difficult theory, but this IS poker and this is where I excel. Understand every bet you make. If you can't find a reason that a bet would be good and would accomplish something, then check. Seeing more streets is not that bad with marginal hands when you can induce bluffs.

[Sherman]

Please link said posts in violation.

BTW, this: [ QUOTE ]
betting for information makes NO LOGICAL SENSE.

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't entirely true. But I agree with you.

[cheburashka]

Thanks Gobbo,

That's very useful and food for thought.

[erc007]

[ QUOTE ]
for the love of god

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[ QUOTE ]
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

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This is a good post...and i'm glad to see that winning all that $$$ has made gobbo a spiritual man as well.