Is Neo-Atheism The Way to Go? [Poll]

[SammyKid11]

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What exchange is more likely to lead you in the right direction? "Hmm. I don't know. It's not my taste, but it's your decision.". Or... "Are you kidding me? LOL!! That looks ridiculous on you! Sure, go ahead and buy it if you want to look like an idiot!".

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You're setting up a false dichotomy here. The first reaction is overly civil. "I don't know," "not my taste," and "your decision" barely takes a position. So of COURSE the second response is going to have a more powerful effect, in that it very clearly takes a position.

If, however, the first option you gave us was civil, more like: "look, if you want this job, I really don't think you ought to wear this shirt to the interview. It just doesn't look good on you," then we might have something to compare.

In this instance, sure, some people will still be more likely to pick another shirt after being mocked for their first choice. Others (maybe people who don't have great fashion sense but THINK they do) will be so turned off by the mocking that it makes them MORE likely to do what they will, essentially deciding your crass behavior makes you an inappropriate judge of what's best for them.

This second group of people, sadly, will usually more closely resemble religious people...people whose worldviews are utterly illogical but who think they're right on course. With these people, firm but polite disagreement is really the only hope.

With people on the fence, if you want to try outright mockery, go for it...might work.

[vhawk01]

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I sometimes wonder if the very act of debating is where rational thinkers go wrong. You wouldn't debate somebody on witchcraft. You'd simply laugh in their face and move on. If they continued to spout their beliefs in your face (and tried to influence your children and others), then you'd probably get kinda nasty about it, no? But I don't think you'd be advocating that the country start engaging in formal debates if witchcraft ever threatened to become part of the science curriculum in your kid's public shool, would you?

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This is a great point, unfortunately, it's not even the point.

If someone wants to shove their religion down your throat, sure, be as rude as you personally feel you need to be. But don't pretend it's all in self-defense, when it clearly isn't. More often than any of you will admit, it is the theist blindsided by a rude, obnoxious attack by the atheist.

Maybe I just have a different standard of raising and a higher standard of social skills than many of you, but if you were to ask me the question "Is it acceptable to mock people for X" I would cut you off at the word "people" with a resounding "NO!". Sure, we all lose control of our tempers from time to time, but to accept and embrace the fact that this group (theists) are acceptable to mock by the atheist, in my view, gives the theist the moral high ground straight from the beginning.

I don't care how stupid you think the beliefs they hold are, that's not the point. The point is to be a dignified human being. I have respect for some atheists, as well as some theists for the dignity and social skills they've shown, and I've also lost alot of respect for many otherwise intelligent atheists as well as quite a few theists for the childishness and pure lack of respect for others they've shown.

In this world, when you've lost your dignity, you've nothing else in my view.

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This is all well and good until we get to the short list of things for which you think it is acceptable to mock people for. All you are saying he is that religion isnt on your list. You give no justification for WHY it isnt on your list, and although it SEEMS like you are claiming you dont even have a list, I find that nearly impossible to believe.

[vhawk01]

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I'm not sure how or why the prefix "neo" is used. Most likely because it's come to stand for the new-age atheist who is more outspoken.

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I'm not sure either, although I generally lump one "neo" in with the next, neo-con, neo-atheist, neo-nazi.

Neo has become synonymous with rude, intolerant, and downright nasty people, and I think in many cases with the term neo-atheist, it fits like a glove.

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Its a good thing you dont mock people. I knew we'd find the contents of your list somewhere.

[kurto]

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I know you'll laugh when I give these particular examples... but my wife and I watch Trading Spouses and Wifeswap semi-regularly. They've had several shows where an atheist or person with 'alternative beliefs' swaps with a very religious family. When the atheist or New Age wife goes to the religious community, she is almost always treated with scorn.

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Yes, television shows looking to maximize drama and looking for maximum conflict are a good place to look for examples of this phenomenon. It's also not like the religious aren't treated with scorn and derision by the atheists; witness the Internet.

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Hey, I admitted it wasn't the best example. That being said, I don't think comparing that to an internet forum is the same thing. The internet is one of the few places where people can speak and not worry about repercussions.

Atheists are the minority. It is perfectly okay for a politician to say Atheists are unamerican. Was that politican attacked for that? Hell no. Can you imagine a politician speaking out against the religious?

I have agreed that there are some atheists who treat the religious rudely. But they are so few in numbers. And they mainly can only do so ON the internet. In many parts of the country to admit you're an atheist is an invitation to be rejected by your community. And again... the atheists are a tiny minority.

I think you're comparing Apples and Oranges.

I'm being repetitive but... its very telling about the society when public figures can demean a group (be it a race or a belief system) and know it will be accepted. If politicians can denounce atheists with no backlash, that's a reflection of the standing atheists have in that community.

[vhawk01]

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I agree with Bill Haywood on pretty much every point he has made so far.

Many of you are acting like hardcore theists were well-educated and rational adults when their beliefs were formed. In fact, many theists were born into their religion or converted after major life trauma. It is often an integral part of how they understand and parse the world. I don't know the best way to handle these people or engage in debate with them, but I'm am fairly sure it is not ridicule and disdain. All that does is make the debate more contentious and forces people to dig their heels in.

Should we challenge their arguments? Most certainly.
Should we mock them? No. How does that solve anything?

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Really? Well thats basically our entire approach to stop smoking, and it seems to be doing ok. I mean, sure, maybe 5% is based on education and providing alternatives but most of it is just based on shame and ridicule and pariahism.

[vhawk01]

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I don't care how stupid you think the beliefs they hold are, that's not the point. The point is to be a dignified human being. I have respect for some atheists, as well as some theists for the dignity and social skills they've shown, and I've also lost alot of respect for many otherwise intelligent atheists as well as quite a few theists for the childishness and pure lack of respect for others they've shown.

In this world, when you've lost your dignity, you've nothing else in my view.

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Around here it takes more of the form of " a man of his word" is all you really have. That takes in sincerity.
I'm a very quiet spoken person and I don't hand out insults or praise wantonly. When I say to a bridge partner, "well played" it actually means that they did something exceptional, not that they followed suit neatly. And they know that about me and seem to appreciate it.
When I say, "I respect his position" I intend it to mean that it has considerable merit and is well constructed even if personally not for me ( much as I do to non-extremist political left or right positions). To say I respect a belief in an ancient myth ( etc, etc) would render the concept vapid and it would be like complimenting my partner for not revoking.

I don't know how much disagreement there would be in our actual interactions but I certainly want my 'respect' to be respected. In the sense that if a friend says, "well, luckyme respects Guillies position" that it is taken as a positive comment on Guillies position.

luckyme

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Respecting everyone equally equals respecting no one meaningfully. What DblBarrelJ seems to be saying is that your BASELINE level of respect should be higher. Unfortunately, I dont really know how to show SUPER DUPER respect for things that, you know, I actually respect. So its much easier to simply show less respect for things I have less respect for.

[vhawk01]

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lesat,

WRT your OP I would have to say that I am a weak atheist. I am not this neo atheist who goes about the world speaking strongly about their lack of faith. I fear the loss of friends and public ridicule and the constant public harassment that comes with even speaking to people about being an atheist. With the close people around me who are non-theists I discuss things without worry. I am also much more upfront with people I have just met. But the core group of people around me I am far too afraid of alienating them when speaking about it...and with some I am afraid of changing their mind(ie turning my catholic friend to atheist). I don't know if this post has any relevance to this thread, but I have felt the need to illustrate this point and perhaps get a comment or two about it.

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No, sorry, we've been informed that it is the brash atheist who is at fault "more often than we think" so I think its safe to dismiss your personal experience as anecdotal and irrelevant. Its not like you were burned at a stake. Atheists are the rude ones.

[vhawk01]

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What exchange is more likely to lead you in the right direction? "Hmm. I don't know. It's not my taste, but it's your decision.". Or... "Are you kidding me? LOL!! That looks ridiculous on you! Sure, go ahead and buy it if you want to look like an idiot!".

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You're setting up a false dichotomy here. The first reaction is overly civil. "I don't know," "not my taste," and "your decision" barely takes a position. So of COURSE the second response is going to have a more powerful effect, in that it very clearly takes a position.

If, however, the first option you gave us was civil, more like: "look, if you want this job, I really don't think you ought to wear this shirt to the interview. It just doesn't look good on you," then we might have something to compare.

In this instance, sure, some people will still be more likely to pick another shirt after being mocked for their first choice. Others (maybe people who don't have great fashion sense but THINK they do) will be so turned off by the mocking that it makes them MORE likely to do what they will, essentially deciding your crass behavior makes you an inappropriate judge of what's best for them.

This second group of people, sadly, will usually more closely resemble religious people...people whose worldviews are utterly illogical but who think they're right on course. With these people, firm but polite disagreement is really the only hope.

With people on the fence, if you want to try outright mockery, go for it...might work.

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How do you know that the neo-atheists HAVENT tried it? Thats the problem. You hear the "plan B" tactics and think that was the only approach taken. You ask us to try it, but how would you know if we had? If we do and it works or doesnt you wont ever hear about it.

[hitch1978]

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A former president of this country has said that atheists shouldn't even be considered Americans, because this country was founded under god.

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Fortunately the opposite is true here in the UK, God bless the UK!

[MoP_86]

I don't know how we're going to get there.... but I hope sometime in the future we as a collective group are able to look back at ourselves as a species and laugh at some of the stuff we came up with.