PL: Turned nut flush faces board pair on river

[texnewb]

Still no Omaha PT. MP2 just sat down, so no reads.
My notes on CO seem all irrelevant to this hand (aggressive-pf, donks small on flopped monsters, bigger on turn if callers, was willing to get it all in against a shortstacker for ~1/3rd of his stack ($7) PF With AA78r)

PLO8 $0.20/$0.25, Party, 9-way (irrelevant stacks deleted)
Stack sizes:
MP2: $26.78
CO: $31.36
hero: $23.15

Pre-flop: (9 players) hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 raises to $0.5</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($2.6, 5 players)
hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 bets $0.75</font>, CO calls, Button folds, hero calls, UTG folds.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($4.85, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">hero bets $2.5</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($12.35, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero? </font>

Extra Crap
---------
1. Do you like a bet small, fold line here (e.g. bet $3.50) and fold to a raise to get value from curious JJJ holders?
2. Is the notion of inducing a bluff (check-calling any sized bet) rediculous at these kinds of games (microstakes, weak/passive) unless an absolute maniac is in the hand?
3. Do you ever take a bet/call line here against a non-maniac?

I feel like betting pot and checking both have the same problems. A pot bet will probably only be called by a hand that beats it. Any hand I beat will probably check behind if I check. So I gain no value, hence, a bet/fold line is right?

Thoughts from critics who think my flop play is too weak are welcome too. I'm generally weak in big bet poker when OOP and drawing.

This was my first time trying a bet &lt;pot. I started noticing my pot bets, including bluffs, usually go uncalled but some people will call against the obvious nuts if the bet isn't huge. Seeing as I have a low for back-up here, is this stupid or +ev long-term?

[texnewb]

Bump. This one's doing my head in. Thoughts?

[brian64]

By betting 1/2 pot on the turn, you are giving someone with a set almost the right pot odds to call. If you do anything but check-fold when the board pairs on the river, then the set has implied odds to call on the turn. Given how the hand played and that you have 3 clubs, I would think MP2 has a set, but of course with no read on him you don't really know. Once MP2 calls on the turn, then CO has the pot odds (4:1 to half the pot) to call if he holds A2 (or of course a set if MP2 is somehow calling with A2).

On the river, I would usually check/fold when the board pairs, because most of my opponents wouldn't put any more money in the pot without a full house. Your mileage may vary.

[John Ryan]

Looking at the texture of the board and given the limits you are playing (i.e. the assumed skill level of your opponents) I really don't think you're in that bad of shape. KK, JJ, and 88 have to raise the flop, probably KJ too, (there's too many draws just to smooth call) so we can assume the cutoff has none of those hands. As for MP2, they raised preflop, which is much more emblematic of an AA2 type of hand which could play this exactly the way they did. Also, I think if they flopped a set along w/ A2 for example, they'd bet more than 1/4 the pot w/ both flush draws and straight draws present. It looks more like a scared one pair bet, hoping to take a pot down easy than a big hand. On the river, I think more often than you think you're gonna run into busted low draws and weaker flushes here. The only hand you really might be nervous about is XXJ8, but I don't fear it that much. I check the river, b/c betting doesn't really gain you much, but I might not be disinclined to calling a bet if it emerges. FWIW, I like your smaller turn bet, though it could be larger maybe 1.50ish, you have more than enough hand to make a value bet here, so your chief concern shouldn't be trying to price people out. It's not a bad situation to hope for some customers.

Extra Crap:

1 - The small bet/fold line isn't too bad, but I think you can catch a bluff/retarded river bet here more often by checking and gain a little more value that way, but a healthy mix is also good.

2 - See previous answer. Trust me, smaller stakes inducing bluffs is a powerful tool. Idiots will fire just about as often as you let them when they bust a draw.

3 - Non-maniac bet/call seems a little silly, b/c what does a non-maniac raise you with here?

I like the flop play, you got a piece, but I prefer to keep it small and make my plays after this hand develops a little bit. Pot control is critical in PL games.

[Buzz]

Hi Tex - I would be more aggressive after this flop. I would either bet $2.60 at the start of the second betting round, or check-raise to make it $4.10.

And then, having made a flush on the turn, I would bet the pot.

The way you played, it's very hard to know why your opponents are drawing. You figure they must have been drawing for something. But what? Does the board pair on the river make somebody a full house? If you check, somebody is likely to bet the void behind you. But it's hard for you to bet realizing you may get raised.

The way you played it up to this point, I guess I would check and call, hoping to induce a bluff behind me.

But hopefully, if you played more forcefully on the second and third betting rounds, although you probably don't get rid of somebody with top set, at least nobody might be left with two pairs or possibly middle set or bottom set. You want to do what you can to prevent an opponent from making a full house on the river.

Buzz

[texnewb]

Thanks heaps everyone [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]