Renouncing US Citizenship

[Ganjasaurus Rex]

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And to your point about 50% being spent on war... you are greatly overestemating the cost of the wars that US are involved in.

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Good point. Our entire military budget isn't even close to that, and a large percentage of the military budget has nothing to do with the current wars.

Total outlays are $2,387 billion. Iraq + Afganistan wars take up $161 billion. That is only 7% of the total budget. I'm not a fan of the Iraq war either, but it's best to know the facts before making major life decisions.

[fatgirl_lover]

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on the other hand, countries (the US) are so full of s.hit when they talk about free trade. it's just free trade that allows money to come into the country, not people.

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Im not sure if I understand the last sentence. Do you mean that more people should be allowed to immigrate to the US? Because if thats your point you will really have a hard time finding a country where you would be satisified with the government. Can´t think of a western country that allows more poor immigrants into their country than the US.

And to your point about 50% being spent on war... you are greatly overestemating the cost of the wars that US are involved in.

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bedreviter, i wasn't clear and you are right that the US allows more immigration than most places. however with all the rhetoric about "free trade", it is really inconsistent to and unfair to have so many immigration laws... not relative to other countries, but relative to having true free trade.

here is a random and interesting link http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolit...e/Spending.asp
globalissues.com is a good site!

[Bedreviter]

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not relative to other countries, but relative to having true free trade.


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You are the one wanting to become a citizen of another country as a protest, so it should be pretty important to see how US is doing compared to other countries. I mean you dont want to look stupid and move to a country where you find that the government is even worse than the one you left your home country in protest of.

By all means, be critical of the government as much as you like, but as you see moving to another country as a way to take it a step further then the politics of your potential new home should be something you would like to look into as well.

And US doesnt have free trade, and noone claim they do. They have trade with restrictions and various trade-agreements, which they also have on the immigration policies.

Study different countries and make a list of those you feel satisfy your goals. If the restriction on immigration is a concern then you are basically out of candidates already. If violation of human rights is a concern then you have a very short list as well. If agressive use of military force is a problem then you have to take away quite a few countries. If restriction on the freedom of speech is something you care about then you also have a shortage of possibilities.

[MicroBob]

Of course the U.S. is full of hypocricies and completely moronic policies. I disagree with a lot that this country is doing and am very seriously considering never voting again because I pretty much think the electoral process is a sham and a waste of everyone's time.
Yeah, I'm angry about some of the stupid crap and policies and am just plain sick of it so to that extent I'm somewhere approaching fatgirl-lover's position.

That doesn't mean that renouncing one's citizenship just to feel better on some principle is such a hot idea though.

It really is true that the passport is pretty damn valuable. And is also true that if you get into some kind of trouble elsewhere the U.S. will be more likely to help you then a lot of other countries.
The policies of many many other countries are completely idiotic even if they don't have the strength to waltz into an Iraq and start pushing people around. So they screw their own people more than running around screwing-over people outside their country. Not sure that's signficantly better.

Admittedly my views on this have changed in the past few years since dating a girl from Peru who will be extremely happy to finally get her U.S. citizenship in a few years.
It's a big headache trying to get into the U.S. legally but it's still easier than a lot of other countries and for those who are able to stick with it it's the dream of a lifetime.

They hold these Visa lotteries for other countries where they give away a handful of U.S. citizenships. Probably 0.1% or less of those who apply are granted citizenship I'm guessing.
GF had a relative who won and it was tears of joy and big celebrations throughout the whole family because everyone was so happy for her.

It's learning of stuff like this and I guess seeing it through her eyes somewhat that I realize how much I had always taken U.S. citzienship and the opportunities in this country for granted and probably still do although perhaps not quite so much.

I can't even begin to count the number of different ways I think the U.S. sucks. But the benefits of U.S. citizenship are just so huge.

[fatgirl_lover]

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not relative to other countries, but relative to having true free trade.


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You are the one wanting to become a citizen of another country as a protest, so it should be pretty important to see how US is doing compared to other countries. I mean you dont want to look stupid and move to a country where you find that the government is even worse than the one you left your home country in protest of.

By all means, be critical of the government as much as you like, but as you see moving to another country as a way to take it a step further then the politics of your potential new home should be something you would like to look into as well.

And US doesnt have free trade, and noone claim they do. They have trade with restrictions and various trade-agreements, which they also have on the immigration policies.

Study different countries and make a list of those you feel satisfy your goals. If the restriction on immigration is a concern then you are basically out of candidates already. If violation of human rights is a concern then you have a very short list as well. If agressive use of military force is a problem then you have to take away quite a few countries. If restriction on the freedom of speech is something you care about then you also have a shortage of possibilities.

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yeah fair point that the other country should be better than here and i would be wise not to mess that point up. however, my point about free trade is a sidepoint, simply that people that talk about free trade are huge hypocrites or liars. there is a difference between this and war, war is about actively doing harm to other people. restrictive immigration laws is about NOT HELPING other people out, and that is okay with me (though in this case i think the only people we are hurting is ourselves). also i really disagree that regarding the US and free trade - "noone claim they do".

re: your last paragraph, i personally think war is the worst evil by far by far (although we already great freedom of speech laws). i'm kind of thinking now, i want to do good but the world isn't really set up for that, even if i really want to it is hard for me so maybe that takes away the culpability. what do you think? also what do you think are some good countries to live in?

[fatgirl_lover]

good post microbob. "But the benefits of U.S. citizenship are just so huge." that is a problem though, the way you wrote the sentence which i think is the truth. i think the benefits have to be passed up for moral reasons, but as you say the benefits are so big and we have so much to lose by passing them up it's hard to.

[Bedreviter]

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what do you think? also what do you think are some good countries to live in?

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Im hoping to get to stay in the US when Im done with school (Im from Norway), so I guess Im not the right person to ask [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[MicroBob]

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good post microbob. "But the benefits of U.S. citizenship are just so huge." that is a problem though, the way you wrote the sentence which i think is the truth. i think the benefits have to be passed up for moral reasons, but as you say the benefits are so big and we have so much to lose by passing them up it's hard to.

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It's not just about keeping it for the benefits in spite of all the evil crap even though I believe I made it sound that way.

The U.S. does get some things right and does indeed do some good in spite of all their hyporicy and horrible policies.

Allowing themsleves to continue to be a land of opportunity even with significant immigration limitations, etc in there and also the bit about freedom of speech and expression even though most of the country doesn't seem to get that are still a couple of significant reasons why the U.S. ain't ALL bad.

Land of the Free seems like a ridiculous slogan when the government is specifically telling me that they don't want me playing internet-poker. I have a lot of other problems with the U.S.
But then I just start to feel ridiculous about it all when my GF tells me of times when they had to wait in line for hours and hours for rationed bread or sugar because there was some wacky political coup or overthrow and her whole country was a total disaster.

Now her country is doing better partly due to more trade with the U.S.
But she has cousins in their late 20's with decent jobs who make $300/mth which is an acceptable salary there. They are just expected to continue living with the rest of their family because they couldn't possibly live on their own.

So she looks at me with my complaints about the U.S. and even when she doesn't say anything I kind of feel ridiculous because it's obvious that my almost petty principle-issues of "the government sucks and they're all morons" are nothing compared with some of the problems of some of the other countries with 50% REAL poverty or whatever and who look up to the U.S. not only as the world's super-power AND as the land of opportunity.
Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of incredibly incompetent politicians in other countries. Her Dad goes on and on about all the idiots who keep screwing up any chance her old country has to do better.

So it's not just the realization that I have really been taking for granted the advantages of being an American but also realizing how the U.S. truly does do some really good things too and I guess taking a little more pride in being an American as a result.

[Henry17]

If you gave individuals the choice of any country to be a citizen of I am positive the US would be picked most often and would represent about 40-60% of the global vote. You have that and want to give it up. Doesn't make sense to me unless you are really young and naive.

[AlexM]

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If you gave individuals the choice of any country to be a citizen of I am positive the US would be picked most often and would represent about 40-60% of the global vote. You have that and want to give it up. Doesn't make sense to me unless you are really young and naive.

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Random appeal to majority. All most of those 40-60% know is that even the poor in American are rich and fat. This doesn't mean it's actually a better place to live than elsewhere.