On being self-centered

[JaBlue]

A lot of people say that being self-centered is a bad thing.

Why?

In some sense each individual is alone. Only he makes choices and only he is responsible for them. Does it follow that his fundamental - and only necessary - concern is how those choices effect him? If not, why should he worry about how those choices effect others in a way that is not rooted in his own happiness?

Why should anyone consider anything but their own well-being?

[ArturiusX]

Most self centered people are completely unaware of the game theory or any type of power negotiating. So being self centered is good, but when we refer to self centered people as an insult, we usually mean ones that are stupid.

[theBruiser500]

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Most self centered people are completely unaware of the game theory or any type of power negotiating. So being self centered is good, but when we refer to self centered people as an insult, we usually mean ones that are stupid.

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well said

[Stuey]

I try not to be self-centered but I don't think I ever really pull it off. Remember when I made you that halloween avatar? I was trying to make you happy. But was I also trying to gain respect and attention? Was I getting enjoyment from giving it to you? It can be argued that any action has self-centered motivation behind it. I would like to think I was not doing it for any of these reasons, but it does not really matter. I was happy and there was a chance it made you a little happier.

So my point is if we are only doing things to make ourselves happy why not pick stuff that has a chance to help others at the same time? You still end up at happy and in my opinion it is easier.

[JaBlue]

Arturius,
In my experience the people that have a problem with self-centered people don't like them because they think that self-centeredness is a character flaw, not because they think the self-centered person is stupid. And why try to make someone feel bad for doing something you think is stupid? Seems like a pretty meaningless behavior.


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if we are only doing things to make ourselves happy why not pick stuff that has a chance to help others at the same time?

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Lets say there are happiness points. More points, more happy. HP includes everything (convenience, effort, etc.) and rates overall perceived resulting happiness at the time of the choice.

choice A - brings me 10HP and doesn't affect you
choice B - brings me 10HP and you 5HP
choice C - brings me 12HP and doesn't affect you

A vs. B: seems obvious that B is better than A. But maybe its not. Maybe I should be indifferent, assuming choice A does not affect you at all.

And what about B vs. C? Less total happiness points in C, but more for me. I think many would maintain that I should choose C, but why?


And to add to my original post, if one is only concerned with their own HP, then why shouldn't they do something that raises their HP but lowers others? Is there a cutoff where this is acceptable? To clarify the last point:

A: i) me +1,000,000 you -1


Is A acceptable? If so, at what negative HP for "you" is it unacceptable?

[Claunchy]

The problem with all that is that there aren't happiness points, and you can't mathematicize happiness.

I think it's intuitively obvious (to me, anyway) that being happy requires some kind of balance between helping out others (especially people you care about) and making sure you get what you want out of life.

I guess you could argue that when I help others, I only do so for selfish reasons (i.e., it makes me happy to help), but I think that point of view is really solipsistic and wrong.

[entertainme]

While we are are selfish in nature there's a large difference between being selfish and self centered.

To understand why it's wrong take it to its extreme.

If my happiness is my only concern then why not kill you and your family for what I could gain?

If my happiness is my only concern then why not hurt and disappoint you in any given situation because, after all, I'm only concerned with myself.

I may be able to be perfectly happy if I did away with Bill Gates and stole his wealth so that I would never be in need. I could even set myself up to be a beloved benefactor to millions of others if my crime were not discovered. It would probably be fulfilling to me to be adored by the masses.

Does this give you some insight as to why self centeredness is often seen as a character flaw? It's an excuse to put yourself before all others, in ways from minute to horrendous.

[JaBlue]

"The problem with all that is that there aren't happiness points, and you can't mathematicize happiness."

Not sure what mathematicization is, but valuation and comparison are all you need. Some choices make you happier than other choices and some choices make other people less happy than other choices. You can approximate how your future choices will effect you and others based on experience. The question is how to act and why once you've done this approximation.

If you don't like my examples the way they are, maybe add a couple zeros and the word "about" and I think they should be acceptable.

"I guess you could argue that when I help others, I only do so for selfish reasons (i.e., it makes me happy to help), but I think that point of view is really solipsistic and wrong."

More on this please. All I see right now is a claim and no support.

[JaBlue]

Stuey,
"cuz its impossible"
You're a special breed. I think for most people, though, this situation is possible. Why do you think you're different?

Reef,
"Why should anyone consider anything but their own well-being?
--
these types of people generally have no friends"

If they're happy without friends, what does it matter?
If they're not happy without friends, they're not doing a good job of figuring out what will make them happy.

pokermom,

"If my happiness is my only concern then why not kill you and your family for what I could gain?"

Well, if you are truly happier killing me and my family, then why not? For most people this isn't the case because they would be unhappy after killing someone else and they would be unhappy faced with the legal consequences involved, but maybe murderers (thieves etc.) run their own analysis like this and think they will be happy killing someone.

"If my happiness is my only concern then why not hurt and disappoint you in any given situation because, after all, I'm only concerned with myself."

Again, if this doesn't affect your happiness, why not?

"It's an excuse to put yourself before all others"
Why is this so bad? I'm contending that maybe, properly considered, I do come before all others. And that you should think that you come before all others.

I think your examples fail in this context because if I accept that I should come before all others in my own decision making it would be inconsistent to say that you shouldn't consider yourself before all others in your decision making. Though it may make me unhappy - or dead - I can still understand it.

[Claunchy]

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Not sure what mathematicization is, but valuation and comparison are all you need.

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Meh, mathematize, whatever. My point still is that approaching things like happiness logically probably won't get you far. You're never gonna "figure out" how to be happy through analysis. At least I don't know anyone who has.

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More on this please. All I see right now is a claim and no support.

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We live in a world, with other people and things. This is true not because I can prove it to you logically, but because to think otherwise is silly and academic, and basically ignores the reality of existence.

If you won't concede this, then there is no point in trying to convince you not to be self-centered, because in a world where you're totally alone you definitely should be self-centered.



Reading your latest post, it seems like you're equating "happiness," which I would define as a more fulfilling long-term contentness, with gratification, which is what you want at some particular moment.