do you chop? no, i prefer to play my five deuce offsuit, kthx

[tyler_cracker]

let me take this part first:

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Here's another way of looking at it: if you had 52o in the BB, it folded to the SB and he had just completed without offering you a chop, would this hand still be interesting?

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yes, of course. have you fallen into the trap of thinking this hand is about whether i chop or not?

i think it's funny that less than a week ago you posted a PSA, the first main point of which was:

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1. Give reads. If you have no reads on the specific player in question, at least give your general read of the table. If you've only just sat down at the table, give your general read for the site/limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

i thought that the issue of chopping was a factor that affected the play of this hand, so i included it. you obviously agree, because you have suggested a couple times that chopping is *so* key to the hand that the hand itself is only appropriate for a NC discussion.

again, i think this hand is as useful to discuss as any other blind defense hand. the chopping issue is not central, but it is not irrelevant. it is part of my read of the situation.


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"Please don't talk about the previous streets, just answer my damned question about the river you [censored],"


[/ QUOTE ]

i didn't mean to imply that no one should talk about the first three streets (fret and i are debating them even as we speak). however, i am pretty confident that the first three streets are straightforward and not very interesting. this is why i was attempting to refocus the discussion on the river decision, which i think is interesting.


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As to the river, who cares? It's one bet either way in a 7-bet pot.

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if you believe this, then why talk about limit poker at all? should i value bet this river with TPTK against an opponent who has just called down? it doesn't matter! it's only 1 bet either way!



ok, with all of that out of the way, we finally come to the strat portions of your reply:

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his line doesn't make any sense pretty much regardless of what he has unless he's holding an overpair (not 77) or the case deuce, and puts you on something like A4 that'll be scared to bet the river. But you're a TAG, you value-bet rivers all the time, so he isn't going to be worried about it checking through.

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so your range for him is something like AA-88, 66, and 2x?

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If you can't fold to a trey, just call his bet

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we're a pretty heavy favorite against the range i've come up with based on your description. are you sure raise/call isn't better?

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
his line doesn't make any sense pretty much regardless of what he has unless he's holding an overpair (not 77) or the case deuce, and puts you on something like A4 that'll be scared to bet the river. But you're a TAG, you value-bet rivers all the time, so he isn't going to be worried about it checking through.

[/ QUOTE ]

so your range for him is something like AA-88, 66, and 2x?

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If you can't fold to a trey, just call his bet

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we're a pretty heavy favorite against the range i've come up with based on your description. are you sure raise/call isn't better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's see if I can get off my soapbox. That range is about what I'm thinking. The problem I have with a bet/call is that the guy you describe isn't going to trey with the pocket pairs, only with 2x and you lose to all 2x hands. There's a possibility that he's pulling this with specifically 7x, but that'll fold to a raise. There's also a possiblity that it's specifically 65 (again, afraid that your A4 checks behind), so again you should be folding to a trey.

I understand the point you're trying to make with your read, that he's thinking that you're an a-hole, and he's going to punish you with his 4x, but if you really believe that he's trying to play well, does he trey with anything that you beat here? For that matter, does he call with anything that you beat if you raise? Sounds to me like the kind of guy that would just call with A5, sure that you had a boat, a better set or wouldn't call a trey without one of those.

[i]Edit: we're only a pretty heavy favorite against that range if he treys all of it. I don't think he does. It's trips, not a set; if you were holding a set then, yeah, raise all day long.