KJs vs LP mcTAG opener

[wslee00]

i second what milky says

and i also agree with babalatexi's line post flop

this is a call pf,
a call on the flop,
and bet on turn if villain checks, or fold if villain bets again

I think this is pretty standard if you ask me. you should be floating tons of flops here against a CO pf raise.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
i second what milky says

and i also agree with babalatexi's line post flop

this is a call pf,
a call on the flop,
and bet on turn if villain checks, or fold if villain bets again

I think this is pretty standard if you ask me. you should be floating tons of flops here against a CO pf raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow way off.

[traz]

I don't mind the way this hand is played. There are a plethora of options here...you can 3bet pf, but it's not mandatory at all. You can flat the flop, but again a raise isn't so bad. You can bet the turn, but checking is fine.

None of the streets has a mandatory action, and I think this line is fine sometimes.

By the river I think you see Axs a very large percentage of the timne

[AZplaya]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Profish, the turn is a good card to bet out on. It gives you so many more outs.

[/ QUOTE ]
funny I'm usually more inclined to check behind in pos. if the turn card gives me some nice disguised draws...

[Hail Eris]

[ QUOTE ]
i second what milky says

and i also agree with babalatexi's line post flop

this is a call pf,
a call on the flop,
and bet on turn if villain checks, or fold if villain bets again

I think this is pretty standard if you ask me. you should be floating tons of flops here against a CO pf raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems completely backwards to me. TAG vs TAG, villain barrels the Ace with a very wide range and we should shove over him with all of our new outs. OTOH if he checks the Ace, he will often show up with a made hand planning to c/c or c/rai and snap off a float. Our outs are very disguised, we can rep a busted spade draw when we hit, and it would suck very much to be checkraised. Therefore, if he checks, we should check behind.

Anyway, I think you can either float or raise this flop, and you can either 3bet or flatcall PF, and I don't think either line is clearly better. While this certainly seems like a good board for a float, villain is no doubt aware of this, and will 2barrel with a high frequency. So I don't see that floating is clearly better than raising. I think the hand is fine as played, provided you can profitably raise this flop with all your Queens.

[Babalatexi]

Apparently I misread the hand, I thought we had nothing on the turn but were just floating cause the flop was paired. Now I wouldn't mind a turn raise if villain bets.

[matrix]

woah - this thread got a lot more replies than I expected.

I am still not convinced that 3betting preflop vs a very ABC villain who I have position on is optimal with KJs - when called we are dominated or worse I think and when the pot gets big we have less playing room to try things postflop.

I think w/ position I can win a larger pot without 3betting than I can when I 3bet as usually when I 3b it gets folded pre. Perhaps I think wrong. It's good for shania certainly and I do 3b here sometimes I just chose to flat this time, partly cos *I* am uncomfortable playing 3bet pots still - I suppose the only way to get more comfortable is to practice.

Traz: "being squeezed" - getting squeezed at 50NL is so far down the list of things I worry about. IME it just doesn't happen often enough - and especially when the SB is big fish who thinks squeezing is for lemons (fish, lemon - oh nevermind) I take the point tho that this IS something you need to consider at higher limits. I'm happy if bigstacked fish SB comes for the ride and am expecting him to call lots here - then I have position on TWO bad players with a useful drawing hand and a "lot" =) of implied odds - which strikes me as not all that bad the 20% or so of the time I flop goot.

Perhaps I should raise bigger on the flop or plan instead to flat the flop and bet/raise a scary turn. When I raise flops it's usually to about that kind of size. I get folds often enough to make it profitable despite offering sweet odds for villain to chase his flush if the fd is what he has. I don't want to pay more than I have to to get the job done, IME so far at 50NL that kind of size works out OK as villains seem t worry more about "zomg he raised" than how much I raised and the odds they have after I do.

The way things work out if a non [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T hits or any non Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I just hit the jackpot most likely and I check to preserve my implied odds hoping for a big payday, half expecting a bluff /misplaced value bet from villain on a sweet river for me - planning to check behind river again if villain gives up.

It didn't come and I crawl out of there thinking I folded the best hand a few% of the time - but putting villain on Axss more often than not.

Anyways lots of good food for thought here - thanks for the great content.

[P0kerJunkie]

I'm gonna go ahead and ask a damn noob question- i don't have PAHUD tho so maybe that helps explain it. is a 24 VPIP really characteristic of a "meowchow" TAG player? aren't TAGs closer to 17 or 18 VPIP? also not sure what the 2p2 means in this situation- prior to the stats. Thanks.

[corsakh]

Meochow is more of a pfr to vpip ratio.
20/10 is a meochow. 20/15 usually is not.

[P0kerJunkie]

right, i see. a little less imaginative with the 20/10, i guess. still, isn't 24 VPIP a bit high for a player to really be classified at 'tag'? i've read that 17 or 18 is about normal for a TAGgy player