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  #1  
Old 11-14-2007, 03:04 AM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Razz - one more river

Raise 4th? Too aggressive on the river, now?

Razz ($0.50/$1.00), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises

4th Street - (3.30 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.65 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises

6th Street - (6.65 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

River - (8.65 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises

Total pot: (12.65 BB)
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  #2  
Old 11-14-2007, 11:49 AM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
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Default Re: Razz - one more river

Raise 4th? Huh? 4th is pretty close to a fold. I'd call sometimes. I'd raise never.

5th is not a raise. 5th is SO not a raise. Not only is your hand whooped, but your draw could be also.

I'm not sure I love a call on 6th. Purely statistically speaking your opponent has a pair here something like 70% of the time (because they're showing 4 low cards, this is assuming they started with a 3 card 8). They'll actually have 2 pair, and no hand, something like 20% of the time. You have 10 outs to improve out of 36 unknown cards, so that's good, but sometimes you're drawing dead and sometimes you'll improve and so will he (if he has, say, an A down then he has as many outs as you (plus the best current hand) so he'll win 26 times when you don't improve, and about 1/3 of the time when you do and he does also so he can expect to win this hand something like 29/36 times if he doesn't currently have your draw beat)

Raising the river is interesting... you may have been drawing dead, or he may have improved to beat your hand. It's hard to say.

One thing that is difficult with a hand like this is that with an 8 up, your opponent is often going to take the same action on 3rd wit 876 as he will with A28 so it's difficult to tell if he's paired, or how strong his made hand is.
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  #3  
Old 11-14-2007, 12:22 PM
roggles roggles is offline
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Default Re: Razz - one more river

River an easy value raise. Fold to a 3-bet
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  #4  
Old 11-14-2007, 04:18 PM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Re: Razz - one more river

[ QUOTE ]
River an easy value raise. Fold to a 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks. Yeah, if he'd have three-bet I'da fainted dead away and timed out!
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  #5  
Old 11-14-2007, 04:29 PM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Re: Razz - one more river

[ QUOTE ]
Raise 4th? Huh? 4th is pretty close to a fold. I'd call sometimes. I'd raise never.


[/ QUOTE ]"Raise 4th" was a little joke - too little, I guess?
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  #6  
Old 11-14-2007, 04:31 PM
ceegee ceegee is offline
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Default Re: Razz - one more river

I'm calling 5th there. I also don't raise the river, you are beat a lot there.
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  #7  
Old 11-14-2007, 06:47 PM
kerze kerze is offline
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Default Re: Razz - one more river

[ QUOTE ]
Raise 4th? Huh? 4th is pretty close to a fold. I'd call sometimes. I'd raise never.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rusy when would you fold. I never raise but I never fold here. Isn't the whole purpose of completing on 3rd to ensure that we play the hand right on 4th when we brick and he catches good. Assuming that villain is decent and bets out even if the 3 pairs him, i give him a range of (7- 7- 8)3. Based on this we have about 39% equity in the pot. We are getting 3.8:1 to call which means that I think we have to take off another card here.

Even if we eliminate 3's from his down card range, we have about 33% equity.
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  #8  
Old 11-14-2007, 06:56 PM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
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Default Re: Razz - one more river

No, you need more in there than just a completion. I consider 6:1 the minimum odds I'd want to call 4th here. I might call with a little less, since he is drawing to an 8 and my wheel cards are reasonably live. But as small as this pot is, 4th is a fold.

Look, showdown equity just does NOT work that way. You can't compare showdown equity, in any sense, to immediate pot odds, except on 6th st, and really that's not 100% applicable because there's a chance you'll want to fold hand on 7th that could win.
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  #9  
Old 11-14-2007, 07:02 PM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
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Default Re: Razz - one more river

(We're getting 4.3:1 to call, not 3.8:1, btw)
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  #10  
Old 11-14-2007, 10:23 PM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Re: Razz - one more river

[ QUOTE ]
No, you need more in there than just a completion.

[/ QUOTE ]Back to kerze's question, I'm curious, also. When would you fold this hand to a hand with an 8 showing?
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