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  #541  
Old 11-03-2007, 10:29 PM
Choparno Choparno is offline
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Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

As others have said, surely it is not a convincing defence to just say “I am not a bot, because I have tilted / quit good games / don’t have timing tells”. Someone does not have to run bot software on their account 100% of the time; in fact if they were operating a bot some of the time it would be in their interests to have a pattern of play where they are exhibiting non-bot characteristics. This should be pretty obvious.

Also, the change in Sillysal's tone from “please post any data you have on me” to “this data does not prove anything, you need to prove I was running bot software” is strange to say the least.
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  #542  
Old 11-03-2007, 10:29 PM
Ryanski Ryanski is offline
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Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

I am one of the 30/60 , 50/100 HU regulars mainly on FT, and the thing that always made me curious about pokergirl z and daurgman is their relatively low VPIP from the button. Most HU regulars have AT LEAST 80 minimum from here, whereas I believe all the bots previous that were busted(bocaloca, bono1945) are all under this.

Raising only 65-75% from the button is definitely missing value preflop, and can be quite the mistake over time.

A few of the bots busted from the past:

Bobaloca: 66 VPIP , 74.77 VPIP from button, 1324 hands
bono1945: 63 VPIP, 74.76 VPIP from button, 1045 hands
Japinthesack: 65.29 VPIP, 75.85 VPIP from button, 3449 hands
FlopbeNice: 67.1 VPIP, 72.55 VPIP from button, 611 hands

It`s just amazing that any HU regular that has played for as long as pokergirl z has would not have recognized such an obvious mistake.


pok z : only 419 hands, 64.69, 75.92 VPIP from button


Look at some of the players like the bryce, gehrig, hoss, antonius, pretty much any regular over 10 20 have VPIPs from the button of over 80, almost all other regulars have VPIP from button over 80.


Pok z also lied earlier about using the grego777 account which has obviously been her other account, always logged on whenever pok z was logged on.

Pok z also talks exactly like beatme did, which is humorous.



Any thoughts on NiHaoMah, cenizo is weird too.
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  #543  
Old 11-03-2007, 10:37 PM
Choparno Choparno is offline
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Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

A question for the mid/high HU limit players. Are there regulars who play exclusively HU, or is it common for players at these stakes to also play 3-4 handed depending on game selection?

I am thinking back to earlier in the thread when a player mentioned Sillysal would immediately sit out on WPX when a game became 3-handed, even when playing a huge fish. Just wondering whether there is a class of strictly HU players for whom this is common practice or not.
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  #544  
Old 11-03-2007, 10:40 PM
___1___ ___1___ is offline
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Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
A question for the mid/high HU limit players. Are there regulars who play exclusively HU, or is it common for players at these stakes to also play 3-4 handed depending on game selection?

I am thinking back to earlier in the thread when a player mentioned Sillysal would immediately sit out on WPX when a game became 3-handed, even when playing a huge fish. Just wondering whether there is a class of strictly HU players for whom this is common practice or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the mid/high HU limit players on FT play HU exclusively. Not all but most.
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  #545  
Old 11-03-2007, 10:47 PM
gehrig gehrig is offline
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Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

ryanski,

bono, flopbenice, bobaloca, lip2lip, daurgman 8 months ago etc all play exactly the same and all play good. they all have the same bot timing tells etc

grego, poker girl z, beatme1 and daurgman in the last few months all play exactly the same (but different from the first group) and all get the same obvious poker-stuff wrong. none of them have ever had bot timing tells that i've observed. this group is pretty much break-even at this point which shows a certain level of competence given the stakes they play.
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  #546  
Old 11-03-2007, 10:55 PM
R*R R*R is offline
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Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Not to be rude but who are you? Are you a spokesperson of some sort?
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  #547  
Old 11-03-2007, 10:59 PM
jukofyork jukofyork is offline
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Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If my hypothesis is correct it doesn't excuse anything. Using an AI program to make your decisions is cheating regardless of who is holding the mouse.


[/ QUOTE ]

Um, no it isn't [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

As evidenced by nlnut et al - using computer-aided decision making is A-OK on FTP providing a human is at the controls and has the ability to override the bot's "suggestion"

Same goes for Stars regarding certain applications on the "allowed software" list.

Why on earth would a site deem "advisory" class applications a bannable offense?

The danger of poker bots is not that they play correctly - a trained human can do that - it is that they can play unattended 24/7 without tilt and can be replicated at will.

No?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think when you get to the stage of allowing players to just follow the output of some poker AI and say it's ok so long as a human clicks the buttons, then that will be a sure fire way to kill online poker. It seems strange that in online chess/backgammon it is quite clearly cheating to use an engine to advise you (even if you press the buttons yourself...).

First NU LHE was targeted probably because of the availability of research papers, but I fear that next SNGs will be targeted in a similar way. I previously tried to bring peoples attention to this in this post, but was surprised at the level of apathy and the number of people who seem to think it's fine to use poker AI so long as "you click the buttons yourself".

If poker sites wish to allow realtime game-theoretic advisers for SNGs then I think they should also allow them for HU LHE. What exactly is the difference?

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #548  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:11 PM
Ryanski Ryanski is offline
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Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
ryanski,

bono, flopbenice, bobaloca, lip2lip, daurgman 8 months ago etc all play exactly the same and all play good. they all have the same bot timing tells etc

grego, poker girl z, beatme1 and daurgman in the last few months all play exactly the same (but different from the first group) and all get the same obvious poker-stuff wrong. none of them have ever had bot timing tells that i've observed. this group is pretty much break-even at this point which shows a certain level of competence given the stakes they play.

[/ QUOTE ]


No arguments about pok z and greggo`s timing tells, barely watched them ever, but the 15 minutes I watched daurgman, guy paused every time it was his turn to act, preflop, postflop, whatever, it was very consistent.

Saw him bust a few times on other occasions as well, never reloading when with a few BBs left, and when completely bust his buyin, just sit there with no chat at all, no reload of any sort, nothing.

NiHaoMah is legit right É . I have no stats on him.
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  #549  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:13 PM
gehrig gehrig is offline
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Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

how long ago did u watch daurgman

when bobaloca etc were running daurgman was an obvious bot

in the last 3ish months i haven't noticed the bot timing tells but its not like i sweat his every session
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  #550  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:16 PM
Leader Leader is offline
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Posts: 7,682
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
Pokergirl z
Pre-flop played %
65

grego777
Pre-flop played %
66

Daurgman
Pre-flop played %
68

[/ QUOTE ]

It's very unlikely that these stats in particular came from the same player/bot. If the player's true stat is 65, then after 62K hands they will be within that ~.4 of the 65 95% of the time. It's about a one in ten million event that this player would have a 66 stat. It's virtually impossible for the stat to be 68 over the samples discussed. Of course, this type of analysis assumes things that may not be true such as static game conditions/inability of the bot to adjust. It also assumes that MH or FT didn't round 65.4 to 65 and 65.6 to 66. Even so, I felt it necessary to point out that appearances here maybe deceiving and that it's possible to draw the opposite conclusion from the data then is obvious from just looking at it.
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