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  #31  
Old 08-01-2007, 01:13 PM
4_2_it 4_2_it is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

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[ QUOTE ]
You realize there is a FR forum that seems to get a lot of traffic?

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Yes, I do. Just as I realize that this forum is for people making the transition from limit to NL.

If the mods would like to make an addition to the sticky saying this forum is EXCLUSIVELY for limit players transitioning to 6-max NL, then I'll go away.

However, until that happens I will continue to provide honest answers to honest questions, and share my experiences of what adjustments I had to make when I changed over from limit to NL.

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Whoa nelly! Don't get your feathers ruffled. I was not attacking you at all, just pointing out that a lot of very solid regulars also play FR.

I enjoy your posts whether they be here or in the other forums. Not sure why you thought I was hinting you shouldn't post here [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

All -- Now we return to the serious business of the Internet.
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  #32  
Old 08-01-2007, 02:49 PM
Surf Surf is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

[ QUOTE ]
I approach pre-flop a different way. I evaluate the following:
0) Stack Sizes
1) My position
2) Position of my opponents
3) Opponent tendencies
4) My cards
5) Action that occurred before it gets to me
6) Likely action should I raise or limp

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This is pretty much what runs through my head before I make a pf decision. Raising AJo utg can be a mistake in some (many?) games and a no brainer in others.


Some kind of nitty starting ranges that should keep you out of trouble:

utg: AJo+ (drop AJo if you get 3bet alot or you expect 3 or more callers semi-regularly)
A7s+
SCs 56s thru JTs
PPs 44+
KQs, KJs

HJ:
Add A5s+, some suited 2gappers, KTs, QJs

CO:
Add any suited Ace, any suited 2gapper, decent suited 3gappers (J7s),
33/22, ATo, KQo, KJo, KTo, QJo, unsuited connectors

Button:
Add unsuited 2gappers, random suited stuff and whatever you can get away with given the blinds' tendencies. Stay away from A2o-A9o though for now, they're RIO nightmares even with position.
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  #33  
Old 08-01-2007, 08:16 PM
sethypooh21 sethypooh21 is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

Phy,

It's likely that this forum will be primarily for those going to six max since the majority of limit play seems to be 6-max. So naturally, the majority of LHE players trying to learn NL are going to choose 6-max, because we don't have the patience to be anything but lagmonkeys at FR. (which means we should all go play donkaments, RAR...)
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  #34  
Old 08-02-2007, 12:43 AM
Gelford Gelford is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

OK. resident nolimidonk speaking up. Like 42it (nice to se you posting here and helping out, good stuff Frank) I am a 6 max player, So I'll let phydaux be the nerd and ignore full ring.

So what is this preflop about ??

Is it really the stacks ?? (God I hate that Sklansky book)


Actually, no ... it is still the blinds, just like in limit, a game of poker starts out as a struggle for the blinds and that is actually still the name of the game if you play shorthanded NL hold'em (6max or less).

Can it be about the stacks, sure ... but most people that talk about aiming for the stacks play low stakes where the PLAYERS they are facing are exploitable in one way or the other and so will stack off frequently. In a game like this, you can run tight as hell and just get paid off on your top pairs and set and laugh all the way to the bank. But does this make shorthanded NL a game about the stacks, no not really, it is still about the blinds against competent players.


So how do we construct our starting hands ... well there are the premiums, those are good, but other than that, we are looking for hands with a little extra, which makes pps and soooted cards in various forms good. Most of the time, your cards are irrelevant as you go raise, cbet end off hand, but once in a while you will hit a litte extra.

That is why from the above:

[ QUOTE ]

UTG: 22+; A9o+; A2s+; 54s+; 64s+; Kjo+; Qto+; Jto+; J8s+; Q9s+; K9s+.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is horrid imho, as A9o+;Kjo+; Qto+; Jto+ are disasters waiting to happens (unless you have a read on the player you are targeting that he is hopeless)


While

[ QUOTE ]

utg: AJo+ (drop AJo if you get 3bet alot or you expect 3 or more callers semi-regularly)
A7s+
SCs 56s thru JTs
PPs 44+
KQs, KJs

HJ:
Add A5s+, some suited 2gappers, KTs, QJs

CO:
Add any suited Ace, any suited 2gapper, decent suited 3gappers (J7s),
33/22, ATo, KQo, KJo, KTo, QJo, unsuited connectors

Button:
Add unsuited 2gappers, random suited stuff and whatever you can get away with given the blinds' tendencies. Stay away from A2o-A9o though for now, they're RIO nightmares even with position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks much better, note the comment about AJo in ep.


Also note, that being loose is an insurance against setmining, as sure you will stack off against sets with tptk, but most of the time villian upon hitting his set (which is difficult) will only win a cbet from you, since you are in there with a wide range of hands.


(There is nothing wrong with being snaredrum tight, but table conditions are not always such, that it is optimal.)
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  #35  
Old 08-02-2007, 02:20 AM
phydaux phydaux is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

Hmmm. Interesting.

So Gel, as a 6-max player you're really not looking to play past the turn? Find a guy who'll fold to a c-bet, then beat him up and take his milk money hand after hand, but fold when he plays back at you?

Is that what makes floating so dangerous? 'Cause to be honest, at FR uNl I never float, and I don't see it costing me a dime.

Obviously you occasionally flop a monster, and those times you play past the turn for all your chips.

I can see where TPGK is a higher quality hand at 6-max than at FR. You regularly play for all the money with TPGK?

Anyway, I have a buddy from a MMA forum who happens to be a high stakes NL 6-max player. He's got his own strategy site, and I totally forgot about this article he posted a few weeks ago. Thought I'd pass it along, since it's a good 6-max primer.

Pillaging Short-Handed 6-max No Limit
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  #36  
Old 08-02-2007, 02:29 AM
Gelford Gelford is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm. Interesting.

So Gel, as a 6-max player you're really not looking to play past the turn? Find a guy who'll fold to a c-bet, then beat him up and take his milk money hand after hand, but fold when he plays back at you?

Is that what makes floating so dangerous? 'Cause to be honest, at FR uNl I never float, and I don't see it costing me a dime.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure there is a turn, the turn is where you make decisions with your marginal holdings (pot control, either by checking behind flop or turn)

Also you off course balance your bluffing frequencies (2nd barrels) to protect yourself and extract (pure TOP)

[ QUOTE ]

Obviously you occasionally flop a monster, and those times you play past the turn for all your chips.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well as said, lets not forget those marginal hands like tpnk and 2pgk etc

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I can see where TPGK is a higher quality hand at 6-max than at FR. You regularly play for all the money with TPGK?


[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on board texture and opponents, but going broke with tptk is not something that disturbs my sleep.
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  #37  
Old 08-02-2007, 09:17 AM
kaby kaby is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

Why are we raising only 44+ UTG and only A5s+ in HJ?
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  #38  
Old 08-02-2007, 09:54 AM
4_2_it 4_2_it is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

[ QUOTE ]
Why are we raising only 44+ UTG and only A5s+ in HJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because play a naked A OOP on an A high flop is eh suck. With 44, it's usually a c-bet and shut down if called when you miss and YAHTZEE when you hit. With a hand like A5s, position allows hero to dictate the play of the hand and control the pot when an A flops or pump the flop when he hits his draw.
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  #39  
Old 08-02-2007, 05:16 PM
jstill jstill is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

whats the reason for not opening 22 or 33 in the hj or utg but 44 utg? Is this based on empirical evidence or what? seems like all these low pairs play about the same in NL, u win with a c bet as often, u flop a set as often.. is the small occurance when they have a set in the 22-44 or make a split pair in that range over ur set/pair really decreasing its profit that much more? particularly since in NL people fold bottom pair pretty regularly id assume to a standard c bet.
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  #40  
Old 08-02-2007, 05:27 PM
4_2_it 4_2_it is offline
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Default Re: Can we just get preflop out of the way? part I

jstill,

I play 6-max and my standard is to raise all PP from any position. Occasionally I will limp when I am certain a maniac would 3 bet me off my 33 pre-flop.
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