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View Poll Results: recombine sssh and mhsh?
yes 5 20.83%
no 19 79.17%
combine different 2 forums 0 0%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11  
Old 10-06-2007, 01:59 AM
Big Limpin Big Limpin is offline
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Default Re: 5CD Why do I call here?

Whats the consensus? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] People seem to feel strongly for both folding and calling. I'm curious which camp is the majority.
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  #12  
Old 10-06-2007, 05:58 AM
Big Limpin Big Limpin is offline
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Default Re: 5CD Why do I call here?

ignore my earlier post by the way, im not really so sure anymore. i've been paying off here, maybe could find folds? i'll try what the poll tells me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #13  
Old 10-06-2007, 09:05 AM
LLCoolDave LLCoolDave is offline
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Default Re: 5CD Why do I call here?

I've voted fold still, although this is very enemy dependent. I just went over gregg's calculation again and tried them with Villain just overplaying AAA 20% of the time, and the call should still be slightly positive. The main problem here is figuring out if Villain is capable of overplaying his hand like that. You should always assume that Villain is capable of doing something really stupid some of the time, but it's hard to quantify that for this situation. As I stated initially, Villain was more on the passive side, so I expect him to overplay his Hand at most as often as in gregg's initial assumption, which means the eV of the call is at most +3$, I expect it to be more around the $1 mark. I don't really mind giving up one Sklansky Buck in a one in 20000 Hands situation to save 12 real Dollars right in front of me at the table. I feel I have enough of an edge at the game to be a winner without making such a low eV and high Variance call and keep those 12$ to be invested in better spots =) I definitly see why one can and maybe even should call, though, and I'd definitly call if I intuitivly put a set into villains pushing range there.
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  #14  
Old 10-06-2007, 10:40 AM
greggg230 greggg230 is offline
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Default Re: 5CD Why do I call here?

[ QUOTE ]
I've voted fold still, although this is very enemy dependent. I just went over gregg's calculation again and tried them with Villain just overplaying AAA 20% of the time, and the call should still be slightly positive. The main problem here is figuring out if Villain is capable of overplaying his hand like that. You should always assume that Villain is capable of doing something really stupid some of the time, but it's hard to quantify that for this situation. As I stated initially, Villain was more on the passive side, so I expect him to overplay his Hand at most as often as in gregg's initial assumption, which means the eV of the call is at most +3$, I expect it to be more around the $1 mark. I don't really mind giving up one Sklansky Buck in a one in 20000 Hands situation to save 12 real Dollars right in front of me at the table. I feel I have enough of an edge at the game to be a winner without making such a low eV and high Variance call and keep those 12$ to be invested in better spots =) I definitly see why one can and maybe even should call, though, and I'd definitly call if I intuitivly put a set into villains pushing range there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think unless villain is a complete nit, calling or folding here won't save / lose a lot of money in the long-run. It's a really close decision.
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  #15  
Old 10-06-2007, 11:00 AM
LLCoolDave LLCoolDave is offline
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Posts: 25
Default Re: 5CD Why do I call here?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've voted fold still, although this is very enemy dependent. I just went over gregg's calculation again and tried them with Villain just overplaying AAA 20% of the time, and the call should still be slightly positive. The main problem here is figuring out if Villain is capable of overplaying his hand like that. You should always assume that Villain is capable of doing something really stupid some of the time, but it's hard to quantify that for this situation. As I stated initially, Villain was more on the passive side, so I expect him to overplay his Hand at most as often as in gregg's initial assumption, which means the eV of the call is at most +3$, I expect it to be more around the $1 mark. I don't really mind giving up one Sklansky Buck in a one in 20000 Hands situation to save 12 real Dollars right in front of me at the table. I feel I have enough of an edge at the game to be a winner without making such a low eV and high Variance call and keep those 12$ to be invested in better spots =) I definitly see why one can and maybe even should call, though, and I'd definitly call if I intuitivly put a set into villains pushing range there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think unless villain is a complete nit, calling or folding here won't save / lose a lot of money in the long-run. It's a really close decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's precisely why I'm leaning towards folding here. Calling is pretty ev-neutral, which is why I prefer reducing variance in that case. These kind of situations are so rare that it will take a LONG time before I'll enter the long run. Why gamble when I have an edge in many other situations? I can definitly see why one would be interested in calling in even such a marginal +eV Spot as this, and I don't feel bad about my call at all anymore, although I'd still prefer having folded. Unique or very rare situations may require a different approach than the usual goal of maximizing ev for some players, including me.

In any case, I see both options to be valid and the choice depending mostly on personel preference.
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  #16  
Old 10-06-2007, 11:13 AM
TomTom TomTom is offline
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Posts: 547
Default Re: 5CD Why do I call here?

BTW, do we all know of the 2P2 format 5CD converter?

Pot Limit 5 Card Draw ($0.25/$0.50) (converter)

SB ($2.75), Seat 5
Hero ($36.40), Seat 6
UTG ($33.70), Seat 1
MP ($18.05), Seat 2
CO ($10), Seat 3
Button ($20.05), Seat 4

SB posts $0.25. Hero posts $0.50.

Hero is BB with [Jc 2c 6d 5d 5c]

Round 1: ($0.75)

<font color="#666666">UTG folds. </font><font color="green">MP calls. </font><font color="#666666">CO folds. </font><font color="#666666">Button folds. </font><font color="#666666">SB folds. </font><font color="green">Hero checks. </font>
Hero discards Jc 2c 6d. MP takes 3.

Hero has [5d 5c Jd 5h Jh]

Round 2: ($1.25)

<font color="red">Hero bets $1. </font><font color="red">MP raises $1 to $2. </font><font color="red">Hero raises $3.50 to $5.50. </font><font color="red">MP raises $12.05 to $17.55 (all-in). </font><font color="green">Hero calls. </font>

Pot: ($36.35)

Results: (in white)

<font color="white">Total pot $36.35 | Rake $1.80

MP had [Kh Kc Kd Ks 4s] and won ($34.55) with four of a kind, Kings.
Hero had [Jd 5h Jh 5d 5c].
</font>
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  #17  
Old 10-06-2007, 11:50 AM
greggg230 greggg230 is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 755
Default Re: 5CD Why do I call here?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've voted fold still, although this is very enemy dependent. I just went over gregg's calculation again and tried them with Villain just overplaying AAA 20% of the time, and the call should still be slightly positive. The main problem here is figuring out if Villain is capable of overplaying his hand like that. You should always assume that Villain is capable of doing something really stupid some of the time, but it's hard to quantify that for this situation. As I stated initially, Villain was more on the passive side, so I expect him to overplay his Hand at most as often as in gregg's initial assumption, which means the eV of the call is at most +3$, I expect it to be more around the $1 mark. I don't really mind giving up one Sklansky Buck in a one in 20000 Hands situation to save 12 real Dollars right in front of me at the table. I feel I have enough of an edge at the game to be a winner without making such a low eV and high Variance call and keep those 12$ to be invested in better spots =) I definitly see why one can and maybe even should call, though, and I'd definitly call if I intuitivly put a set into villains pushing range there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think unless villain is a complete nit, calling or folding here won't save / lose a lot of money in the long-run. It's a really close decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's precisely why I'm leaning towards folding here. Calling is pretty ev-neutral, which is why I prefer reducing variance in that case. These kind of situations are so rare that it will take a LONG time before I'll enter the long run. Why gamble when I have an edge in many other situations? I can definitly see why one would be interested in calling in even such a marginal +eV Spot as this, and I don't feel bad about my call at all anymore, although I'd still prefer having folded. Unique or very rare situations may require a different approach than the usual goal of maximizing ev for some players, including me.

In any case, I see both options to be valid and the choice depending mostly on personel preference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear ya. For me, spite would outweigh wanting to reduce variance, so I'd call. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #18  
Old 10-06-2007, 11:51 AM
greggg230 greggg230 is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 755
Default Re: 5CD Why do I call here?

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, do we all know of the 2P2 format 5CD converter?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet stuff. I've been looking for one. Thanks for the heads up.
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  #19  
Old 10-06-2007, 04:57 PM
BBQbowser BBQbowser is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 57
Default Re: 5CD Why do I call here?

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, do we all know of the 2P2 format 5CD converter?

Pot Limit 5 Card Draw ($0.25/$0.50) (converter)

SB ($2.75), Seat 5
Hero ($36.40), Seat 6
UTG ($33.70), Seat 1
MP ($18.05), Seat 2
CO ($10), Seat 3
Button ($20.05), Seat 4

SB posts $0.25. Hero posts $0.50.

Hero is BB with [Jc 2c 6d 5d 5c]

Round 1: ($0.75)

<font color="#666666">UTG folds. </font><font color="green">MP calls. </font><font color="#666666">CO folds. </font><font color="#666666">Button folds. </font><font color="#666666">SB folds. </font><font color="green">Hero checks. </font>
Hero discards Jc 2c 6d. MP takes 3.

Hero has [5d 5c Jd 5h Jh]

Round 2: ($1.25)

<font color="red">Hero bets $1. </font><font color="red">MP raises $1 to $2. </font><font color="red">Hero raises $3.50 to $5.50. </font><font color="red">MP raises $12.05 to $17.55 (all-in). </font><font color="green">Hero calls. </font>

Pot: ($36.35)

Results: (in white)

<font color="white">Total pot $36.35 | Rake $1.80

MP had [Kh Kc Kd Ks 4s] and won ($34.55) with four of a kind, Kings.
Hero had [Jd 5h Jh 5d 5c].
</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no way you are good here, dump. If this were a higher stakes game I would likely feel differently but not .25/.50 6h.
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  #20  
Old 10-07-2007, 10:01 AM
List List is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 184
Default Re: 5CD Why do I call here?

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way you are good here, dump. If this were a higher stakes game I would likely feel differently but not .25/.50 6h.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me it's actually the opposite. In a higher stakes game he knows you aren't folding, and he knows you have a monster, or a very small percentage of the time total air. He isn't value pushing light without a history. Lower stakes players are more likely to overvalue a hand or do something stupid with crap. If you're going to call at high stakes, you need to know more about the player, and if you have to choose between calling at low or high stakes, I'd lean towards low.
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