baronzeus' video

[Variance God]

i think its VERY close when you scrutinize it. you have to have to read that he'll peel that with KT to make that a profitable 3bet, and we had no such read. also we had no "aggro" read that you are making so obvious. we knew very little about the opponent except that he was "bad". so yeah i disagree with mike and now i guess you too

[baronzeus]

hey guys

thanks for all the replies to this thread. i think it was a huge success. some really interesting stuff. i'm convinced about a lot of the stuff i misplayed (that 88 hand--easy betfold, im just in "heads up" mode sometimes where i never betfold; a few other hansd too), but some of the stuff im not yet convinced (the AK hand, although i was results oriented at the time, it's a pretty standard correct calldown in retrospect)


anyways i dont know what the deal is but i'm gonna try to do a video once every couple weeks or so, or at least once a month. would it be more useful for me to do it at lower limits, like say 10/20 where the competition is a bit (much) softer?

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
hey guys

thanks for all the replies to this thread. i think it was a huge success. some really interesting stuff. i'm convinced about a lot of the stuff i misplayed (that 88 hand--easy betfold, im just in "heads up" mode sometimes where i never betfold; a few other hansd too), but some of the stuff im not yet convinced (the AK hand, although i was results oriented at the time, it's a pretty standard correct calldown in retrospect)


anyways i dont know what the deal is but i'm gonna try to do a video once every couple weeks or so, or at least once a month. would it be more useful for me to do it at lower limits, like say 10/20 where the competition is a bit (much) softer?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the video was so interesting because you were playing 30/60 and were played back at a bunch. Posting a video where you are playing at meaningful stakes against tougher competition will be much better than posting one where you play lower. In fact, I would love to see a video where you or someone else plays higher.

I am encouraged by how much interest this video received and maybe it can motivate the rest of us to post some or at least make them and share them with a selected group. I am pretty sure I put one up a few years back when everyone was doing it and the responses were minimal. I doubt that was because I played so well. BTW, I applaud you for doing this. Opening yourself up for the criticism and taking it like a man is impressive.

As far as the AK hand, I think we can agree to diasagree. Like I said in my post, I almost always play it the way you did and at lower stakes like 10/20 I think a straight calldown is better but not in this game with this board with this villian.

[baronzeus]

yeah, cool

as far as posting higher videos, im a little wary. my play at higher limits is so different than my play in these videos because there is so much metagame/read based stuff that absolutely makes zero sense. and if i posted a HU video id be giving away too much IMO which is something i cant afford to do

i think 30/60 and 50/100 are good limits to post at.

[AndyatSD]

Hi BZ,

As far as high stakes short handed players go, you play significantly different than I do, and I guess that's why you asked me to look at the video too. Most of what I wanted to say has already been covered in this thread by others but I'll chime in my two donkey cents. I think the A9 where you folded river you 100% over-thought it. I'm fairly confident you were thinking 'my turn call on this board already showed him I have a piece and I'm going to go all the way so if he fires the river again he thinks I'm calling and is obviously value betting a real hand so I fold and save a bet'. I don't agree with that reasoning because he could simply be betting because you checked. As simple as that. He could be putting you on a weaker Ax and getting value, he can be betting because his hand has no chance to win if he checks behind (you know some people do 3-bet pre flop suited connectors and what not). Or he could not be thinking at all. Folding there has to be losing EV.

I think you suffer from two main problems (at least, just from the hands contained in this video).

1) Think-Opponents-Are-Too-Rational syndrome. For example, you give them too much credit what they may be donking into you, check calling you with, etc. You think you can make opponents make folds when reality the majority of the competition you were up against isn't going anywhere with a piece (the QJss one, I think the turn donk ace is far superior to the check raise, and on that note, I do not believe you donk aces nearly enough when you represented pre-flop a range that likely contains an ace). As I said with the A9 example - not all opponents are thinking. There were times that you were really surprised at what opponents turned up (28s or whatever). Don't be too surprised, not everyone plays 'mathematically optimal' or 'rational'. Stop giving people credit for straight forward logical plays until you can peg them as weak-tight.

2) Your entire outlook on passive vs aggressive in short handed games. I disagree with your 'when the game gets aggressive it's better to be passive'. First of all, it is possibly/probably correct that when the game gets CRAZY AGGRESSIVE, to be more passive. However, I don't think it's a linear correlation between the two. I think past some certain infliction point the value of mixing in being passive goes up greatly but in general if the opponents are only standard aggressive in the higher limit games then always playing the same passiveness you displayed in the video can not necessarily be correct (we can talk about this on AIM more if you want). Another important fact is the chances that someone hit the board remains constant regardless of their aggression level, correct? However, against more aggressive opponents the pot will always be bigger - thereby giving you MORE pot odds/reason to call down the river. You seem to employ the opposite strategy. You make more/bigger folds/checks against more aggressive opponents, because you often think you don't want to commit to showdown for X bets, where X > 1. Without getting into every little detail - like everyone says you fold too much. There's a fine line to take. I fold too little, you fold too much. I think mathematically optimal should be somewhere in the middle. ; )

I respect your game as I've a lot of hands clocked with you, but I do not think you're displaying your stronger points in this video. You're a better player than this video shows. I don't think I'm being result oriented as I'm basing it on the thinking process displayed in the hands, irrelevant of the results. I do think, however, that you are being result oriented and it's because you know this video is going to be public info and you don't want people to think you're a donkey. In conclusion, either get used to it or it's less videos and more winning for you, my friend.

Oh and I like how you took a jab at me in the video when you talked about all those high stakes players that are over aggressive and can maybe beat lower stakes / enjoy short term success, but will go broke in the long run!!! I think you're just about spelling out my name there, don't tap the tank buddy! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

~andy

[baronzeus]

yeah i pretty much agree with everything you said andy. although i definitely wasn't referring to you when i said that! it's funny that both you and doughnutz BOTH im'ed me thinking i was talking about you. hahahaha [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

"1) Think-Opponents-Are-Too-Rational syndrome" i definitely suffer from this. i like to do level thinking (lots of "he thinks that i think that he thinks..") but the problem is a lot of opponents dont think orthink MUCH differently than me. this is true at higher limits more than lower limits.
The A9 hand is a good example. In is position he has to know I have a king or at least a strong 9 and that im NEVER folding, so when he bets, I kno wthat he knows this so I have to fold because its value. unfortuantely you guys are right and it was probably a bad fold

"2) Your entire outlook on passive vs aggressive in short handed games. "

as far as this goes, different strokes for different folks. i think my passivity actually allows me to get to showdown MORE than most people, which is huge as higher stakes games. the biggest reason i have been successful at the higher games is because of that alone.


as far as making big folds i do that more than anyone else in the world probably. literally, only joe cassidy might make more big folds than me, and I KNOW i get bluffed out because of it sometimes.

[Freganism]

I enjoyed the video. Fun commentary. I swear as hell to because I hate all the players I play with.

A9 - clear call. Expect to be beaten but you call this river.

I think you need to change gears a few times during a session to through your opponents off guard.

[sethypooh21]

Also enjoyed the video. Aside from the fact that Baron plays (much) better than me, it could have been me doing the commentary WRT the swearing and stuff (I'm sure I sound like a crazy person when I play). I disagree with those who say it's a sign of tilt - it's more tilt avoidance. For those that have played sports, it's essentially the equivalent of the 'single clap' after you do something bad.

[MacGuyV]

Yah, cursing out donks is super-standard for me.