PNL Study Group Day 8: The REM Process - "Equity", "Maximize", "RIA"

[Sunny Mehta]

Hi guys,

Let's use this thread for all remaining discussion about the REM Process, and anything else in the REM section.

"E is for Equity" means determining your equity against their range of hands.

"Maximize" means maximizing your profits by choosing the most profitable line, given their range and your equity.

The "REM in Action" chapter gives examples of the process in action.


Thanks... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-S

[PureDiesel]

May I ask an offtop about your book and SPR?
When you can't achieve low to medium SPR for big PP's and cards, but you h8 Triskidekiphobia(13) then how you go with let's say KK UTG 6max? Raising to 8-10 bb sounds too stupid, not raising to standard 4bb, just limping? Sounds fishy. Everywhere(and all the VOD's) I've been taught that never open-limp a hand in 6max, except AA sometimes for check-raise.
Your book is awesome, but SPR part...i just don't get it, how to make practical use of it? any limits...
In the book you teach that don't raise the hand no standard by every1 amount(which is 3-4bb), don't do it just because every1 does it...I don't get it, Stox, Cardrunners' VOD's and 2+2 NL section stickies teach you that this is normal and that what you should do. I am totally confused now. Please, help to solve it. Thanks.
Now about REM. The hardest and the most important is R. E- equity is just a matter of calculation. M is choosing the line to take which will be most profitable consider Range of opp's hands and our equity. Did I get that right?

[Sean Fraley]

Narrowing an opponents range of hands is brutal in uNL, especially if you are being very diligent about table selection. Tighter players aren't too bad, especially if they make at least a little sense in when they choose to be aggressive, but even they seem to regularly make just weird moves that you leave you rubbing your temples when it gets to showdown. My problems are with the loose/passive players who either call with bottom pair+ but only raise with the nuts/near nuts or the loose/aggresive Gus Hansen wannabes who seem absolutely intent on trying to bluff you off of every single pot and get more persistent at it the more aggressive you get with them. I find myself constantly unable to get any decent idea of what they have except for rare instances (Mr. Calling Station with a PF aggression of 0.6 check-raises the paired flop, Mr. HyperLag check-calls the TJA flop). Can anyone give me some help on how to get a read on theses guys?

[Milky]

[ QUOTE ]
Narrowing an opponents range of hands is brutal in uNL, especially if you are being very diligent about table selection. Tighter players aren't too bad, especially if they make at least a little sense in when they choose to be aggressive, but even they seem to regularly make just weird moves that you leave you rubbing your temples when it gets to showdown. My problems are with the loose/passive players who either call with bottom pair+ but only raise with the nuts/near nuts or the loose/aggresive Gus Hansen wannabes who seem absolutely intent on trying to bluff you off of every single pot and get more persistent at it the more aggressive you get with them. I find myself constantly unable to get any decent idea of what they have except for rare instances (Mr. Calling Station with a PF aggression of 0.6 check-raises the paired flop, Mr. HyperLag check-calls the TJA flop). Can anyone give me some help on how to get a read on theses guys?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're asking for here since you basically have all the reads you need. As far as playing against them... against the guys who will call too much and only play back at you with the near nuts, just keep value betting relentlessly and shut down when they play back. Against hyper aggressives that will play back at your aggression, just b/3b your solid hands and call/fold with your weaker ones depending on the situation. With your weaker hands you'll need to do a lot of checking behind, as you don't want to be c/r'd and at the same time it will let you snap off a bluff or two.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Narrowing an opponents range of hands is brutal in uNL, especially if you are being very diligent about table selection. Tighter players aren't too bad, especially if they make at least a little sense in when they choose to be aggressive, but even they seem to regularly make just weird moves that you leave you rubbing your temples when it gets to showdown. My problems are with the loose/passive players who either call with bottom pair+ but only raise with the nuts/near nuts or the loose/aggresive Gus Hansen wannabes who seem absolutely intent on trying to bluff you off of every single pot and get more persistent at it the more aggressive you get with them. I find myself constantly unable to get any decent idea of what they have except for rare instances (Mr. Calling Station with a PF aggression of 0.6 check-raises the paired flop, Mr. HyperLag check-calls the TJA flop). Can anyone give me some help on how to get a read on theses guys?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're asking for here since you basically have all the reads you need. As far as playing against them... against the guys who will call too much and only play back at you with the near nuts, just keep value betting relentlessly and shut down when they play back. Against hyper aggressives that will play back at your aggression, just b/3b your solid hands and call/fold with your weaker ones depending on the situation. With your weaker hands you'll need to do a lot of checking behind, as you don't want to be c/r'd and at the same time it will let you snap off a bluff or two.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really asking much of anything, just complaining that hand reading is a PITA in uNL. It just gets really aggravating in situations when I am constantly in situations where any medium strength hand is WA/WB against these types of villains and I have very little information coming in to help me get a better grasp on where I stand.

[PureDiesel]

in addition to my previous post:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...&PHPSESSID=

[Sunny Mehta]

[ QUOTE ]
May I ask an offtop about your book and SPR?
When you can't achieve low to medium SPR for big PP's and cards, but you h8 Triskidekiphobia(13) then how you go with let's say KK UTG 6max? Raising to 8-10 bb sounds too stupid, not raising to standard 4bb, just limping? Sounds fishy. Everywhere(and all the VOD's) I've been taught that never open-limp a hand in 6max, except AA sometimes for check-raise.
Your book is awesome, but SPR part...i just don't get it, how to make practical use of it? any limits...
In the book you teach that don't raise the hand no standard by every1 amount(which is 3-4bb), don't do it just because every1 does it...I don't get it, Stox, Cardrunners' VOD's and 2+2 NL section stickies teach you that this is normal and that what you should do. I am totally confused now. Please, help to solve it. Thanks.
Now about REM. The hardest and the most important is R. E- equity is just a matter of calculation. M is choosing the line to take which will be most profitable consider Range of opp's hands and our equity. Did I get that right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi PureDiesel,

Thanks for the questions. Check out these two links for starters:

here and here


also, we will eventually get to SPR in the study group...

thanks,

Sunny

[Sunny Mehta]

[ QUOTE ]
My problems are with the loose/passive players who either call with bottom pair+ but only raise with the nuts/near nuts

[/ QUOTE ]

Sean,

These types of players are usually the easiest to put on hands, as well as the easiest to maximize against. Can you maybe give an example hand or two?

-S

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My problems are with the loose/passive players who either call with bottom pair+ but only raise with the nuts/near nuts

[/ QUOTE ]

Sean,

These types of players are usually the easiest to put on hands, as well as the easiest to maximize against. Can you maybe give an example hand or two?

-S

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll search my database in a bit, or maybe post any from tonight's session. A hypothetical hand to illustrate my point is this (let's make it $1/$2 unraked with $150 effective stacks just to make it easy):

Hero is Button and has Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and raises to $8. Villain (BB) is a player of the type I see a lot in $25NL/$50NL who sees almost every flop, has next to no aggression on the flop and turn, but very high aggression on the river. He calls the raise, as he usually does.

On the flop, the pot is $17 and the flop comes T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Villain checks, Hero bets $14, Villain calls. There is a possible straight on board and villain is so passive that pretty much the only thing he will raise is a straight. The issue is that while he is afraid to bet without the nuts, he isn't willing to let almost any of his made hands or pretty draws go either. This means that his calling range here is any ten, any eights or sixes with an overcard kicker, any OESD or FD, T8, T6, 86, TT, 88, 66. QQ+ would have gotten 3-bet preflop, but AK or JJ would get smooth-called by this guy. We'll assume that he would let unimproved overcards go on this flop.

Turn comes Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and the pot is currently $45. Villain checks. The queen gives us top two pair which is great since while villain will probably give up a pair of eights or pair of sixes to a bet, He will call with any top pair or worse two pair. The problem is that the queen completes a possible straight draw for villain, and the fact that it also completes the flush draw means that villain is unlikely to bet the straight if he has it. The low aggression on the turn also means that if villain caught a flush, I often won't see a bet on the turn but will see a big bet on the river. Here is where I get frustrated with these guys. My default action here is to check behind and call anything up to a pot size bet on the river. This keeps the pot from getting to big when I'm behind, but I think that I lose a lot of value on my TP or two pair hands because I become afraid of being behind on any remotely scary board. I don't even want to think about how nasty hands like this are when I'm OOP.

Basically, I realize that you really can't put loose calling stations on a narrow range, and on any dry board I basically treat TPGK like the nuts. The problem is that on hands like this I would like to squeeze every last chip possible out of them because they would call a big bet on the turn and get all-in on the river with worse two pairs, and any top pair/overpair. Unfortunately far too many of the times that I've tried this I get shown a hand that beats me and lose a stack.

So, what are your viewpoints on this?

[CarmeloAnthony]

where do you buy this book? does it explain equity,hand range, maximize, etc?