Rules question about showing your hand

[bernie]

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The reason i believe it is improper is that it violates the one player to a hand rule (or at least potentially does). The problem is that I show my hand to my neighbor who has folded and then he has some reaction. While most players claim that the players reaction doesn't influence there play, I am not convinced.

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I'll never find it because it was posted a long time ago, but someone here told a tale of two guys obviously working together like this. Don't recall at all the details, but basically Martin has gone all-in and is waiting for a call and shows Lewis his cards and Lewis says something like "you can't call with that crap, fold!" Martin says "SHUT UP" and looks seriously upset and of course his opponent insta-calls. Martin turns over the nuts and Lewis smirks.

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Imo, that would be an obvious angle.

b

[Photoc]

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Player A obliges and slides over his cards to Player C, who looks at them and hands them back. The cards never crossed the betting line.

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First off, people need to understand this a betting line, not a folding line. Just another reason why these lines are terrible for games. But unless the player who's hand it is throws them into the muck or to the dealer as to fold them, they are 100% live. Any player may ask to see this hand now as well, and it should be shown at the completion of the hand

[bav]

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First off, people need to understand this a betting line, not a folding line. Just another reason why these lines are terrible for games.

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Except sometimes apparently they ARE folding lines, too (I believe at Mandalay?). And yeah, they suck.

Allow me to derail slightly the topic with another "lines suck" story.

Had a line debate in a cash game at Caesars. I had JUST sat down and the table was kinda in a foul mood (don't blame me...I got 'em perky and happy within the next hour).

But a couple hands in a player goes to bet $45. He counts out three stacks of three red chips in front of his cards, but just behind the line. Which is fine since the line at Caesars is meaningless and they've never enforced the line in cash games for anything except "put stuff over the line so the dealer can reach it, please". Except Saturday...

Guy's three stacks are already in front of his cards and he's done. But he goes to push 'em in closer with one hand and in the process his fingers slip off one of the stacks so two go over the line just about a half-a-stack ahead of the third. Dealer (definitely sharing in the foul mood) decides today we shall enforce the line and she pushes back one of his stacks. He tells her no, line doesn't apply and she insists it does. Floor gets called. And the floor also decides today the line DOES matter and he has to back his dealer. Now seriously...the guy was pushing three stacks forward and his fingers slipped off the third stack. Even if they DID play a line, obvious accidents resulting in one or two stacks winning the race by a half-length shouldn't count. But the floor insists. Player waits a minute and cools off and then chases the floor down and asks for a better explanation and gets a "well sometimes it is a line and sometimes it isn't--it's a courtesy line" "What's a courtesy line" "well, that's a good question and we don't really have a definition". ?!?!?!

Player waits a few more minutes and another floor wanders by. He grabs him. And gets the same song and dance. It's a "courtesy line" and there is no definition for what that means. It's a courtesy to the dealer and other players so please put bets over it. The player says "then it's a betting line?" "No, it's not." "THEN WHAT IS IT???" Floor gets annoyed and asks "are you going to push this? Are you going to go all the way with this?" As if this is a totally unreasonable question.

Why is this soooo hard? Even Caesars with a line painted on the felt that they're supposed to effectively ignore can't bring themselves to ignore it. The very presence of the line generates controversy.

Anyway... lines suck.

[cardcounter0]

Some houses it could be dead, a violation of the one player to a hand rule, especially if the "pal" starts offering advice on how to play the hand.

[pfapfap]

RE: Showing Hands. Is this a problem with people giving advice? Maybe it is in the tourist-heavy spots? I used to be a bit nervous about people showing hands here in the Bay Area, but it seems like even at the low limits, they're all regulars and despite their horrible play, understand not to say anything or even nod.

RE: Betting Line. I like it as a courtesy/OSHA line so that the a-holes on the ends don't get involved in, "so can you reach the chips NOW?" arguments with dealers. Again, where I play, it hasn't really been a problem, as most understand it's not a betting line. At the same time, if people are cutting off chips in front of cards but behind the line, people understand it's not a bet yet. Seems we may be the only place where we get benefit of the line but not much of the angle shooting or annoyances. It's sad that folks have such arbitrary and illogical enforcement of rules, but our society is geared towards that. We're told to think in binary, not to consider conditions of the situation. With so many people in the world and corporations taking over every aspect of life, bureaucracy is deep, and people simply defer to the next in line rather than think for themselves. The betting line idiocy is simply another small sign of the coming apocalypse.

RE: Martin & Lewis. I don't believe Bav was referencing that movie with the law student.

[pokerswami]

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While waiting on Player B's decision, Player C, who isn't in the hand, asks if he could look at Player A's hand.

Player A obliges and slides over his cards to Player C, who looks at them and hands them back. The cards never crossed the betting line.

Is the hand dead? Or does it depend on house rules?


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This is not the normal way players show their hands to other players. Normally the player holding the hand bends or lifts the cards enough for his neighbor to see them.

Sliding the cards to another player for that player to handle the cards opens up another possible rules violation separate from the show one, show all rule and the one player to a hand rule.

Even in card rooms where it's okay to show another player your hand in this scenario, it could easily be verboten to allow anyone else to take over physical possession of your cards, as it open up the possibility of outright mechanical/manipulative cheating.