weak one card OESD?

[JJack]

$1.00/$2.00

SB ($26.27) probably LP
MP1 ($91.97) (Hero)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, Button calls, SB

calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>,

I think I have equity + possibility to buy some outs/kick out some weak hand to do raise, like you think?
When back to me cold call 2 bet I think I have to becouse I have probably enought strong one card OESD when I get like 11:1.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( 4.5BB )
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls,

MP3 calls, Button calls,

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( 12.5BB )
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, HERO ???

[neurotiq]

Preflop: I sometimes open-raise ATo in MP1, but mostly fold it. Depends on my read of the table.

Flop: I wouldn't raise here. Our draws like having company; I don't want to push people out at this point.

[Douglas Leslie]

When you have a largish pot like this, your first priority is to win the hand rather than attract callers for when you hit your draw. You raise the flop in the hope that you might persuade someone with ace and a higher kicker to fold. That way you give yourself some extra outs. When it gets capped you know that it is going to need more than an ace to save you. The hand convertor seems to have gone awry with the pot size on the flop, but you have to call the cap even though you might already be in trouble against someone with (most likely SB). Your are getting about twelve to one by that stage. The turn card doesn't change much, so I would call the bet and try to get to the river as cheaply as possible.

[Bona]

I am OK with the open raise preflop. I wouldn't raise the flop though. We have a good draw but: a) We want to keep other players in when we hit our draw. b) we aren't necessarily wanting to put a lot of money in the pot until we hit our hand.

I call the turn and river the J of hearts [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[KaatzMeow]

Grunch:

Preflop: I would not be open raising unless I have tight passive people behind.

Flop: with 3 other in the pot, 5 outs, 17:2 call that last raise and cap, we call to see what the Turn will bring.

Turn: Getting 9.5:1 with the prospect of get raised once or twice, I would let it go.

[maverickai]

grunching...

I would fold to the cap by SB. He's leading out, and he's capping to tell you he's not afraid of anything that's appearing on the flop. And you read him as LP... a passive player capping means a lot of strength. You only have a one card OESD, and the outs are tainted too.

[maverickai]

[ QUOTE ]


calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>,

I think I have equity + possibility to buy some outs/kick out some weak hand to do raise, like you think?


[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think you have equity? you only have a one card OESD on a 2 club flop, and possibly someone has hit a big hand with such a flop, or drawing to more outs than you.

[tyler_cracker]

you guys are mucking this one up.

pf raise is completely standard. it's either that or fold (barring some specific read/situation).

flop raise is good because we would like to clean up our A outs (getting A7/A8 to fold) and sometimes our T outs (Jx may fold its gutshot). if we get a few callers behind us, our raise is usually for value. if we don't, we hopefully buy the button and maybe a free river.

[Sushiglutton]

[ QUOTE ]
flop raise is good because we would like to clean up our A outs (getting A7/A8 to fold) and sometimes our T outs (Jx may fold its gutshot). if we get a few callers behind us, our raise is usually for value. if we don't, we hopefully buy the button and maybe a free river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we get (reasonable) caller(s) I doubt our raise is for value. There is also another problem. A LP leading out often has a hand strong enough to 3-bet.

But I agree with ur outcleaning anaysis, so I still think a rasise is good since the pot is pretty large. Maybe I do a stove for fun.

[Bona]

Tyler, I almost always find I've made a mistake when I disagree with you but I'm having trouble this time.

So what is our flop raise supposed to accomplish? Do we want the hands that we beat when we hit to fold here? Do we really think we want to get HU with SB? Is the pot already big enough to be thinking that at this point? Do we think SB might fold to our raise?
All possibilities considered can it really be a value raise?

Wouldn't we need some specific reads to make a raise the best play here? Even then what would those reads have to be?

Sushi posted some maths but they made my head explode and they are all based on ranges that aren't supported by reads. I'm going to look at them again but I doubt I'll figure that out by myself either.

Over all I think even if you (Tyler) are right this is a WAY to thin play for many of us to make even if we had good reads, and we would just end up screwing up a pretty easy hand to play. (As in call and draw so long as we have pot odds.)